Passports

[J R]

And just for my own edification, and only out of pure, blinding confusion at that, what the _____ is this "you do not like Australians?" about? Seriously, what miscarriage of logic brought that question up?

[Richard Scruggs]

Do you also oppose DNA analysis, fingerprint comparisons, and the use of other physical characteristics to aid in identifying persons who committed crimes, and exculpating persons who are innocent? Or is your issue limited to law enforcement gathering, documenting and preserving any kind of record of those individual features for those purposes?

The former methods seem to require the latter procedures.

And how are passports more intrusive or violative of any personal rights compared to assignment of social security numbers that must be "presented" as needed to assure that certain benefits are only given to those who are entitled to those benefits. Kind of like displaying a passport, but for a different purpose, wouldn't you agree?

Could it be that a logical progression for many arguments against passports would be to urge everyone to sand the skin off of their finger tips to remove prints (and palms too, as well as soles of the feet)? And altering other personal ID features that make our physical appearance unique? Gathering together to burn social security cards in front of Social Security Administration offices all across our nation? And then there's DNA . . . what can be done to protect our DNA from comparisons by those who may try to distinguish one person from the other?

If a means could be found to erase all individuality of appearance so that we all become pretty much anonymous, would we then be more free? And even if that were the result, what's the trade-off?

Movies would get pretty boring. One photograph might even take care of everyone. And all of us would fit into one size for clothing, shoes, packs, and everything else we constantly buy. Hmmm, that might give the term "base weight" much greater significance for comparing one gear list with another. And shopping would be a lot easier.

OK, let the protest begin.

JRS

[J R]

"OK, let the protest begin."

Oops. You tipped your hand. You made it clear that your looking for a protest.

I offer no solutions.

Thats the thing that scares people.

You sit here and joke(?) about the idea that I would want a world of grey – No names, no faces, no individuality. Hardly. I celebrate human diversity in all of its forms and welcome it with VERY open arms.

That is what I offer.

I refuse to reduce a vibrant living being to a slip of paper, a tattoo on their arm, or a chip under their skin.

What do you want for your fellow man?

[Douglas Hus]

My goodness, I see this has become a hot subject here as well.

I originaly posted this topic as just a heads up for international travellers.

Unfortunately I think this subject may have migrated into a larger can of worms.

I also think inlight of the past horrors of terrorism, both locally and internationally, "more" identity documentation looks like the future and not "less".

And now in an attempt to dial things down ……what does a passport weigh anyways?

All the best,
Doug

.

[Gene .]

JR ditto your remarks, and Sarah's…I think as US taxpayers(those of us that are) are in for a REAL screwing this time around.

First, they increased the price of a passport last year, and put the burden upon the average earning taxpayer…not the filthy rich who could care less about a 'passport tax' (which is what this is to live in this Country)in order to travel in and out of this Country.

Too little WAY TOO LATE IMO if it's for 'security reasons' that's BS with a capital B & S. I know the skinny, but won't put it in writing.

It's all about controlling the taxpayers, and getting more revenue in the form of 'passport fees'. That means folks who want to visit friends in Canada, can't without now paying for a new digital passport. Next, after we all shell out the coin for the Passport, the US govt is going to shove a National ID card down our throats as taxpayers for free….I'll wait for the 'Land of the free' card..LOL…

If you're a taxpayer listen to http://www.michealsavage.com and get ready for the fight of our Constituitional Lives!

[Gene .]

Brett I got your back whenever you're ready to join us at the Southern Border! Lived and fought right there in Hereford myself out of the 'Black Station'. It was'nt too long ago that I myself was staring done Federales who were carrying US made M-16a's and wearing old US Army fatigues…

Funny how folks always manage to bring the Canadian Border into these issues; when we ALL know the problem is not with our friends to the North, it's the trespassers to the South!

[Gene .]

Craig, Man, it's not hard to see where you are coming from, you make your money off the illegals!

How about allowing all the millions of teenagers in this Country to get a job, like most of us did when we were young? Huh? Ya' think THAT would reduce gang numbers? Ya think? I DO!

[Douglas Frick]

>what does a passport weigh anyways?

U.S. passport, circa 2000: 0.8 oz.
U.S. Electronic Passport: dunno; I'll find out soon…

[W I S N E R !]

"First, there are roughly 7 million unemployed US citizens. Most esitmates put the number of illegals at around 12 million. So now all US citizens have jobs."

Is it really this simple? So give 12 million undocumented workers the boot and those 7 million unemployed Americans just pick up right where they left off? What about the remaining 5 million vacancies in our economy? Don't the 12 million illegal immigrants pay sales tax, buy gas and groceries, etc?

"First, Mexico has the 12th ranked GDP of world countries. So lets paint a clear picture."

Interesting…We should explain that to the 6 year olds selling 10 cent gum in Tijuana and all those risking their lives crossing deserts to get here.

"Going from english to spanish took me about 4 months before I could navigate daily life w/o a problem."

I think this is quite different from you being able to pass a written citzenship test on the Mexican constitution, system of government, and history, all in spanish.

"The solution is finding ways to culture the economies of third world countries and finding effective ways to enhance quality of life THERE, such as through public works (water sanitation, basic vacinations, education, etc.). Make the third world better, don't bring the third world to America."

Thank you for reiterating my overall point: We will not solve this by kicking people out, only to send them back to poor countries where they try to catch the first bus back…Our current approach is nothing but a revolving door that's not doing any long-term good for anyone.

"Also, don't be so arrogant as to think that someone living in the third world can't be happy because they don't live the life we do. I have met plenty of happy people in third world countries."

Sure there are happy people in the Third World…and they're generally not the ones trying to escape to America for a better life.
And arrogance? What about telling a poor person their nation's GDP is 12th highest in the world?

[Thomas Knighton]

I have zero problem with the people who want to come here legally to fill in the void of jobs left when all Americans are working. However, when you illegally cross the border, you become a criminal. I have a serious issue with people crossing the border illegally.

Why should I, a taxpayer, have to shoulder any burden for them? Yes, they buy groceries and gas. However, a large percentage of their earnings are sent back home, rather than being reused within OUR economy. Plus, as I've already mentioned, they broke the law to get here!

They want to come here? Great! Do it legally and I'll welcome you with open arms…LITERALLY! Do it illegally, and I'll welcome you with a call to INS…LITERALLY!

Tom

[Jay McCombs]

Craig, let me start by saying I respect your views and am only offering you a different point of view. I'm not asking you to change your mind but simply to consider looking at the issue through a different filter momentarily.

"Is it really this simple? So give 12 million undocumented workers the boot and those 7 million unemployed Americans just pick up right where they left off? What about the remaining 5 million vacancies in our economy? Don't the 12 million illegal immigrants pay sales tax, buy gas and groceries, etc?"

Of course 7 million unemployed Americans instantly filling the void of 12 million illegals wouldn't be simple or reasonable, but then booting 12 million illegals over night, over the course of a year, etc. wouldnt' be simple or reasonable either. The first step would be securing the border to keep the problem from getting worse. The deportation would likely go down over several years, though legislation to make it less apealing to hire illegals would help. We would see a gradual migration of certain populations to areas where these jobs needed to be filled. There would likely be either a rise in the price of certain goods (I've heard economists argue that it would be on the scale of a couple of cents and others argue that it would be on a much larger scale but can't give you any real figures as I know little of economics) or a rise in automation of technologies (such as in harvesting, manufacturing, etc.). I suspect the latter.

"Interesting…We should explain that to the 6 year olds selling 10 cent gum in Tijuana and all those risking their lives crossing deserts to get here."

The purpose in mentioning Mexico's GDP was to illustrate the point that there are 181 other countries more impoverished than the one next door to us. Those are heart breaking scenes & stories, but those aren't scenes unique to Tijuana. There are plenty of children in poverty here in the states and all over the world. While I wish that every kid could grow up with the luxuries I was extended, its just not possible. Even if you brought that kid's family to the US he would still live far bellow the level of comfort you and I do.

"I think this is quite different from you being able to pass a written citzenship test on the Mexican constitution, system of government, and history, all in spanish."

I enrolled in University classes shortly there after and did fine. The point I was making was that I picked the language up quickly because I was making a serrious effort to integrate into the society, which is not the goal of most illegals (at least most of those I encounter in my line of work). How can you argue that immigrants shouldn't be able to communicate in the society they live in? You teach ESL!!

"Thank you for reiterating my overall point: We will not solve this by kicking people out, only to send them back to poor countries where they try to catch the first bus back…Our current approach is nothing but a revolving door that's not doing any long-term good for anyone."

Right which is why you improve border security first, and requiring passports to enter the country is part of that. The point is we aren't doing the world any favors by allowing illegal immigration to continue. You mentioned people crossing the desert, risking their lives to sneak in. What if that wasn't an option? What if you crossed the desert only to find an impassable wall? Fewer people would do it. They would, instead, look at ways to improve their lives in their native country.

"Sure there are happy people in the Third World…and they're generally not the ones trying to escape to America for a better life.
And arrogance? What about telling a poor person their nation's GDP is 12th highest in the world?"

Calling someone arrogant just never goes over as benignly as its intended, so sorry, heh. Emotionally I agree with everything you say, bring everyone to the US where they can live better lives. Logically, based on what I see day to day is that illegal immigration offers meager improvements in quality of life for the immigrants vs the risk taken to get here and puts high levels of stress on this countries wellfare programs, especially health care and education. I think you have an overly optimistic view of the life of illegal's lives once they reach they the states. Being apart from family, friends, and dealing witht he anxiety inherent to life as an illegal immigrant likely creates as many social problems as it cures.

I enjoyed your point of view and appreciate your thoughts. I'm going to respectfully bow out of this conversation as it has headed off course tremendously but will continue reading future posts by all with much enjoyment, regardless the topic! Que te vaya bien :)

[Eric Noble]

Gene, I've enjoyed all your posts in these forums except for this one. I feel you've mischaracterized many of those living south of the US. You seem to be against Passports but for secure borders. I'm not sure how that works.

While this discussion has become chaff, I have, in general, appreciated it. It has caused me to consider more deeply IDs and passports. This is not an argument for or against but I think we take them too lightly. In the absence of nations or governments records of births and deaths would still be kept in holy books as they often were and are. Whatever you consider holy. The Government has made them official (legal) and taken the role of recording them as well. There purpose was largely historical and now also legal. The value is to the individual, the family and out from there. I get presents every year. How cool is that! Records of birth and death are not ID's though they make it possible to get a passport or ID. In the absence of nations or governments Passports are meaningless. There purpose is largely in tracking the movements of people, the value is to the nation or government and finally the individual. They serve a purpose and that purpose should be understood and debated. JR seems to have taken a stand on passports and that stand leads to logical conclusions with regards to immigration. You may argue his stand but his logic seems correct. I hope I haven't mischaracterized your position, JR.

EDIT: I've edited my original response to Gene based on his edit and response below.

[EndoftheTrail]

Well, J R, if you feel so strongly about this, why don't you shred your birth certificate, driver license, social security card and your veteran's benefit card (or whatever it is called officially)?

You talk a brave talk, but your extreme position is completely at odds with your reality, so all that it reveals is your own naïveté. You already are part of the system.

[Mike Barney]

I've worked on DHS security programs since before it was DHS, and have to tell you that there is way too much chaff and bad information regarding the REALID.

The fact is the REALID act will make it much more difficult for someone to steal your identity, or create a fake one. PERIOD!

Is there anyone reading this thread that couldn't scan or photograph their drivers license, then merge a different picture on it, or change your age? Probably a pretty easy task for most of us. How many of you can hack a *long* Public Key based system? That answer is zero.

Yes, a DMV'er can cheat, but that's a much smaller problem than any guy (or BPL'er for that matter) with a camera, Microsoft Paint and a medium quality printer and laminator. You might be able to paste a new picture over a REALID, but you won't be able to forge the digital picture or signature.

There are additional technical safeguards (PKI in you're interested) involved that make this a pretty good system.

For Sarah, there are ways w/ REALID that Sarah's "identity twin" issue can be mitigated so the real Sarah doesn't have to carry "I'm really not her" documents. But Sarah has to get a REALID, and so do others including her twin, first.

Don't get paranoid, you don't need to line your hat with aluminum foil, neither DHS nor the CIA is not reading your brain waves or your REALID from across the country.

Finally, to JR's point, if we're not going to make distinctions between legal and illegal, are we going to make a distinction with illegal felons, or escapees? Why don't we just open up our prisons?

[J R]

Ben, have I angered you somehow?

Destroying a birth certificate would do nothing. I carry a drivers license as proof that I have learned to drive a vehicle and know how to operate one safely, not as some means by which my coming and going may be monitored. Surely you are capable of telling the difference between the two? I do not use my social security number for identification purposes either. The SSN was never meant to be used for identification purposes. The fact that it currently is, is a travesty, and you would be amazed how easy the recent rash of identify theft has made it to (rightfully) argue personal security as a reason not to provide an SSN for identification, nor do I ever plan to receive SSN checks in my old age. I do not, have not, and will not utilize any "benefits" I might have access to a veteran. I wouldn't even know HOW to get those benefits. If I have a "veterans benefits" card, I don't know about it.

Please do not try and tell me what "my reality" is. I am as aware of the situation as you are. However, I dont have to just say "aww well f__k it, Im already in the system…. might as well keep playing along" do I? Is that the whole of your argument?

This thread is interesting. So far I have been called an "anarchist", in a manner Im fairly certain was derogatory. Nearly accused of wanting to provide asylum for terrorists. Disliking Australians (wtf is that about?). So disregarded as to have been talked about in the third person as if I wasn't even in "the room". Baited with comments obviously intended to in some way draw me into a fight. And now finally I am being called naive and told to renounce proof of birth, proof I passed a drivers test, a number I had no hand in obtaining as I was an infant, and a veterans benefits card that doesn't exist…. and why?

Because I hold humanity higher than paperwork.

Right monster I am.

[Eric Noble]

I may have misunderstood JR's position but I don't think he is against any and all documentation. I understood him to be against any document who's explicit purpose is to track ones movement (passports). A birth certificate proves your alive. A death certificate proves your dead. A drivers license means you can drive. A Social Security Card means your eligible for certain benefits and pay taxes. I've over simplified but that is the gist of it. If I break the law, those and other records (credit card records, etc.) can be used to track me but that is not the primary purpose of those records. There is purpose and then there is use. The purpose of a baseball bat to to hit a baseball, it's use may be different. The primary purpose of a passport is to document and control ones travels between and within foreign countries.

EDIT: looks like we were typing at the same time JR :).

[J R]

Eric Noble – You are absolutely correct. I am unable to really comment on your post without repeating much of it, so I will just say "what he said".

Both paragraphs were spot on.

Edit: looks like we did it again ;) The above post was ment for your second to last post – but I agree completely with what you just said above.

[mark henley]

Wouldn't it be great if I didn't have to shred my junk mail so some butthead has a tougher time getting ahold of my private info.

Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to worry about some butthead cutting the throat of the Pilot of an airplane I'm flying in because we don't worship the God he wants us to worship.

Wouldn't it be nice if I didn't have to worry about my property taxes increasing yet again this year to provide capital for schools to educate the 2 Million more people who have come to this country illegally, don't pay taxes, and send most of the Money they earn to a different country where it is completely removed from the local, state, and US economy, also causing my income taxes to increase to provide free health care to that same person who doesn't pay taxes? Let's be clear … this takes away from me and my family to benefit someone who feels they are above the laws of the country they've decided to live in.

Wouldn't it be great if the majority of the accidents that now occur in the southern states weren't hit and run accidents by un-insured drivers, driving up my insurance costs year by year?

Well, we don't have that luxury …. if you have a problem with immigration laws in the US, then there is a great system of government here in this country that allows any tax payer to be heard and have an opportunity to be represented in the changing and creation of laws.

Until then the laws are changed …. the Law is what it is … I for one am sick and tired of people choosing to come to this country and choosing not to follow the laws, not to respect the people who already live here, of driving up my costs of just trying to live my life, and not just getting away with it, but being supported by US citizens.

If you choose to live in this country you are bound by it's laws, whether you agree with those laws or not. The immigrants we are discussing are here AGAINST THE LAW.

If I break the law I have to pay the fine, do the time, or other penalty … why don't they?

And if you really want to fix the immigration problem … you should put it back on the governments that are creating the problem. I've traveled extensivly throughout Central and South America, as well as much of the rest of the world. South of Texas 99% of the wealth is controled by 1% of the people … until that changes the problem will continue. Put the pressure back on those countries to FIX their human rights and poverty problems instead of taking a percentage of my income to support those same people.

…. fix that problem.

[Gene .]

Eric, I adjusted that post to be more PC, but let it be known that a good friend of mine in LE was murdered by one of those 'nice people to the South of our Border'.

I too have met plenty of regular folks Eric, South of the Border, the majority of which had no desire to come North upon my invitation to do so. This was of course before my friend was murdered, not killed, in the line of duty.

Oh, and on the Passport issue; if the govt NOW thinks it needs to institute this measure for 'security purposes' then it should issue a FREE passport to every US taxpayer and those listed as dependants on their TAX RETURN. What I'm saying is stop bleeding the taxpayers before they run dry and decide to say the heck with paying taxes at all.

[Eric Noble]

Gene, I am so sorry to hear about your friend. That is a horrible thing to have to deal with. I've had to deal with death but not like that. I can understand that it would effect you. I wish you well!

That clarifies your position on passports as well. I knew it had to be something logical.

[W I S N E R !]

Jay, thanks for the thoughtful debate here, I do see where you're coming from, and no offense taken to any of your comments.

I'm not sure where all of this is headed, so, like Jay, I think it's time for me to respectfully bow out of this debate. I'll keep reading, but I think I've instigated and said WAY MORE than enough.
Whew…carry on folks.

And Gene, while some of your statements are pretty inflamatory, I do appreciate the PM you sent. Everything's ok with me, no offense taken. I am sorry to hear about your loss; the mere fact that violence is part of this discussion is testament to the fact that WE ALL, as citizens and voters, need to work towards an agreeable solution to this.

[Mike Barney]

JR,

when you replied
"Disliking Australians (wtf is that about?)",

I believe the reference was to the question posed earlier "which provision of REALID did you object to", you replied "Every. Last. One."

"Every. Last. One." obviously includes the last provision listed, giving Aussies easy visas access. So is it fair to say you don't object to "Every" provision of REALID, or you really don't want Aussies to have easy access?

[J R]

Ah. So thats where that nonsense came from.

If I have not made myself clear – which it is painfully clear that I have not – I object to ANYONE getting preferential OR discriminatory treatment. I believe in fundamental equality. I desperately hope I do not stand alone on this.

Martin Luther King, Jr. spoke of judging people on the content of their characters, not the color of their skin. How have we "progressed" to judging people by the color of their paperwork?

[sam s]

JR,
you a lawyer? You are 1 slipry dude!

[J R]

No, I am not a lawyer. What exactly are you trying to pin me down with that I keep slipping away from?

[Author]

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