Jan 20, 2012 at 9:15 pm #1284448
My question has to do with studying several 1P UL tent offerings. Namely, the Nemo Obi Elite 1P, the Big Agnes Fly Creek UL 1 and the Easton Kilo 1P.
Floor waterproofing rating:
I don't know the waterproofing rating of the Obi Elite floor(emailed). The Fly Creek UL 1 is only 1200mm silnylon–not sure I trust that for a floor in wet conditions. The Easton Kilo 1P is 2500mm, barely what I would consider adequate in very wet conditions.
Fly Creek-2lbs. 3oz. total, Kilo 1P-2lbs. 1 oz., Obi Elite-2lbs. 7 oz.
Fly Creek- end (not fond of this), Kilo and Obi Elite-side doors and vestibules (like this much better and results in larger vestibule for pack storage
Blowing sand protection:
Fly creek has by far the best protection with its much higher solid tent body walls. Obi Elite has high solid tent body walls, but the fly is also high in those areas resulting in little fly overlap down over the tent body walls which equals more chance of blowing sand getting in the tent. Easton Kilo also has a short solid body wall–there is a full fly, but with the short solid body wall, there is very little overlap of the fly to reduce the chance of blowing sand getting into the tent.
Are there any UL 1P tents out there that deal well with all these issues?
JonJan 21, 2012 at 10:26 am #1827668
Just realized this is my first post here and hadn't introduced myself. I'd registered quite awhile ago and poke around here once in a while and thought I'd already posted and introduced myself, but then thought more about it and realized I'd done neither.
I have done quite a bit of backpacking and alpine climbing, mostly in the North Cascades of Washington state and have been doing so for 25 years. I also have been doing multi-day open ocean kayaking trips off the west coast of Vancouver Island and Washington State for 10 years. And, I do a couple of solo wilderness backpack hunts every year.
For these activities, a UL 1P shelter that is NOT trekking pole supported is important to me as I'll make a base camp for a day or two and use the trekking poles constantly throughout the day until I get back to camp well after dark. Thus the reason I'm asking about the three shelters above and noting their (IMHO) strengths and weaknesses.
Any help/opinions/direction/experiences regarding the issues noted above would be appreciated!
JonJan 21, 2012 at 1:21 pm #1827743
deleted, no help.Jan 21, 2012 at 2:16 pm #1827762
It does make you wonder, speaking from the UK I know that even the 2500 would be inadequate for our conditions 75% of the year. Are these shelters aimed at warmer/drier climates/LDPs maybe?
I expect it comes down to where you hike and what the worst possible conditions could be, if you hike mainly in the desert then they'll probably be okay.
I use a Terra Nova Laer Comp for three or four season camps, with a 5000mm floor it's about as light as I'd want to go.Jan 21, 2012 at 6:24 pm #1827873
You echo my sentiments exactly on the floors. 800mm hydrostatic head equates to 1 psi, if I've done my math correctly, and these coatings on the floor of these tents do get wear and tear over time, reducing their effectiveness in keeping water out.
What's the point of having a floor if it leaks? A 200lb person (or even much less) kneeling with most of their weight on both knees, and especially if on only one knee, will exert many times the rating of the floor and some of these tents.
I think I could live with the 2500mm hydrostatic head floor in the Easton Kilo 1P, but even with that one, I'd be concerned. I like that Easton has taken a little different tact, due to it's own technology of carbon poles that don't have heavy shockcords in them. This lets them produce a UL tent, with the weight taken out of the pole and not so much out of the fabrics and fabric floor coating, resulting in probably a stronger, more protective shelter overall.
Just wish one of these companies would 'put it all together' with a lightweight carbon pole, 5000mm hydrostatic head floor with 6" bathtub floor walls and about 10-12" of very breathable 10 denier fabric above that to a roof of noseeum and a side entrance design where the vestibule truly protects the tent door opening.
Is that really too much to ask in a freestanding or nearly freestanding shelter? Maybe it is…
I'll report back when I hear the hydrostatic head pressure number for the foor in the Nemo Obi Elite 1P.
JonJan 21, 2012 at 7:49 pm #1827914
You caption the thread generally, but limit your choices to the three with the least water resistance, then are concerned about the low water resistance. Don't get it.Jan 21, 2012 at 7:53 pm #1827918
I have the Big Agnes Seedhouse SL2 and man does that floor soak through. As you know it rains alot here in the Seattle area and you will be setting up on wet ground. I'm only 155 lbs and if I put a knee down that spot will be wet. I have to position gear to stay dry from soaking up through the floor.
It's time for a cuben ground sheet. I'll be curious to what tent you get.Jan 21, 2012 at 8:03 pm #1827921
These are the three lightest, seemingly most advanced tents of the kind I'm looking for. I've asked for ideas/opinions, etc. I meant for any kind of UL 1P non-trekking pole supported shelter with floor, if I wasn't clear enough. Give me your ideas.Jan 21, 2012 at 8:27 pm #1827929
@vlariveeLocale: white mountains
I have a msr hubba hubba. Not the lightest but very waterproof. Check out the numbersJan 21, 2012 at 8:47 pm #1827936
Agree. The MSRs have much higher water resistance on the floors. Seem to recall that Marmots and WE in AU do also.
Also agree with those mentioning footprints. A piece of the 1.26 oz. black tinted cuben sold by Zpacks, or a footprint made from the high HH 1.36 oz. silnylon currently sold by T-H, might be the answer for the tent that you like best, but that has low HH on the floor. It would add under a quarter pound for a three square yard area. I would bond it on, so water can not seep between the footprint and the floor. Not sure if it would be better to bond it to the inner or outer floor – would have to think that one over.
For MYOGers, it is just a matter of making the floor from the higher HH material in the first place, and not having to carry the extra weight of the low HH floor (plus bonding agent).Jan 21, 2012 at 8:52 pm #1827940
Thanks, and the MSR Carbon Reflex 1 is even lighter. Does have a 3000mm floor. Better than some. It was over 3 lbs. total weight and I had been looking most at this type of tent under 3 lbs. Probably the reason it wasn't mentioned earlier.
Edit: Also has those higher solid tent body walls. Hmm…will have to mull this over. Don't care of for the 1 lb of extra weight over the Easton Kilo 1P, but…Jan 21, 2012 at 9:04 pm #1827944
The Carbon Reflex is a pretty nice 3-season tent.
MSR (and Cascade Designs) are based in Seattle, so they tend to optimize their stuff for the Pacific Northwest ;)Jan 21, 2012 at 9:48 pm #1827956
Very true and good point being from the area myself. It seems to have everything I want, but the lower weight.Jan 21, 2012 at 10:20 pm #1827963
> It seems to have everything I want, but the lower weight.
Doesn't always seem to end up working out that way?
At least with MSR you get build quality and customer service. MSR's gear is made to last.
The Carbon Reflex is also quite easy to pitch.Jan 21, 2012 at 10:22 pm #1827965
I've got a super-clean 2011 Hubba in gear swap right now.
:)Jan 22, 2012 at 3:02 pm #1828199
@klagsLocale: Northeast US
I can say I've been insanely impressed with the waterproof performance of my BA Fly Creek UL 2. I can imagine the 1P version is awesome too. Nothing wrong with going for the 2P if you like having your gear inside the tent with you, then you can cook in the vestibule in the rain. That's how I usually do it. This tent is impressive in its waterproofness, I have weathered some crazy nights up high in the adirondacks with no problems.Jan 22, 2012 at 3:36 pm #1828205
Do you ever get some seeping of moisture through the floor? The floor waterproofing is my greatest concern.Jan 22, 2012 at 8:23 pm #1828321
@skopeoLocale: British Columbia
When I first bought my Fly Creek UL1 I was concerned about the 1200 mm rating of the floor.
To test the floor and give myself some peace of mind, I took the footprint from the UL1, which I believe is the same material as the floor in this shelter (1200 mm) and threw it over soaking wet moss and knelt on it. No water came through.
To test it further, I flooded the mossy ground with a hose so that there was standing water on top of the mossy ground. I threw the Fly Creek footprint over the flooded moss and put a paper towel down on top of it and drove my knees into it as hard as I could for several minutes (I actually drilled knee holes into the moss. The groundsheet was sitting in water). Not a drop of water showed on the paper towels (which were driven down into the footprint by my knees). I weigh 200 lbs so there was definitely a fair bit of pressure on the 1200 mm fabric.).
I actually thought I would be able to drive some water through the groundsheet but I couldn't. Good enough for me!Jan 23, 2012 at 8:56 am #1828436
An email from Nemo said the Obi Elite 1P floor is rated at 1500mm.
I'd sure like to not have to pack a floor saver. But that may be one reason so many of these floors have such a low rating nowadays–they just assume folks will buy a floor saver, but that doesn't help much if you happen to find your tent pitched in a partial puddle after a rainstorm in a spot that looked OK before the storm. And the manufacturers are making more $ off of us as we buy floor savers–you have to have one, you know…to protect your investment. Is that being a little cynical? :)
When did floor savers get popular–about 10-15 years ago? What did we do before that?
Edit: From Nemo just a couple of minutes ago in asking for clarification as to why such low watertight ratings are being used: "Yes, in order to be waterproof a hydrostatic resistance of about 1,000 mm is needed. The Obi Elite 1P was put on the market in 2011 and this fabric has been rigorously field tested in this model and others for three years with no complaints about the waterproofing as of yet."
Maybe all the customers are using a floor saver…or maybe I'm just too suspicious? :)Jan 23, 2012 at 9:08 am #1828440
@bookLocale: Northern California
I've owned both the BA sl1 and now the fly creek 1. I've never had any problem with water seeping through the floor of either of these. In fact I'm impressed with how bomb-proof the sl1 in particular is; my fly creek has been perfect so far in wet weather but I haven't been in any sustained deluges in that tent–I mean more than a day's rain. I do use GG's polycro (? groundsheet–that super light clear plastic stuff that they sell. Nevertheless I often camped in the sl1 without any kind of groundsheet and never have had a problem. I'm in the Sierras, so a bit dryer than the NW.Jan 23, 2012 at 9:42 am #1828447
@newtonLocale: Southeastern Louisiana
I just purchased a Lightheart Solo – Standard.
Here is some info copied and pasted from Lighheart's website.
"The LightHeart Solo – Standard is our most popular base model.
3500 mm Hydrostatic head 1.1 oz sil-nylon".
Both the Solo and the Duo use the same material and their ridgelines are supported by trekking poles.
Solo weighs 1.69 pounds or 27 ounces.
Duo weighs 2.25 pounds or 36 ounces.
Do either of these fit your criteria?
NewtonJan 23, 2012 at 10:13 am #1828458
Thanks, Newton, for that link. I'm wondering where LightHeart gets 3500mm hydro head 1.1 oz. silnylon? It must weigh 2oz./yard after getting that kind of coating as most 1.1 oz. silnylon gets a 1200mm hydro head coating and weighs about 1.45 oz./yard after the coating.
Intriguing design. I like the 'awning' version (if nice weather, I've never liked the feeling of being cocooned in a tent–nice to be able to see out if you want as that's kind why we are out there–to experience these beautiful places, day or night) as you can see on the awning side of the shelter, the solid wall goes up a bit higher. I'm sure that they could do that custom all around the tent and the awning idea would be nice. Issue is that I often use my trekking poles all day while the tent is pitched at a 'base camp' for a day or two and so I need a non-trekking pole supported tent. I wonder if LightHeart has some UL tent poles for their tents. Might be worth a call.Jan 23, 2012 at 10:33 am #1828476
Looks like that for another $70 and 1lb. 2oz in poles (combined weight of 2 alum. poles and carbon awning pole, that this could be done. Hmmm…does put it right up into the weight of the other tents though and this is a very long and wide tent–might be tough in some spots.
Emailed them about the 3500mm floor in the awning and custom height of solid tent body walls.Jan 23, 2012 at 6:06 pm #1828693
"I'm wondering where LightHeart gets 3500mm hydro head 1.1 oz. silnylon? It must weigh 2oz./yard after getting that kind of coating as most 1.1 oz. silnylon gets a 1200mm hydro head coating and weighs about 1.45 oz./yard after the coating."
The HH of silnylon is not a function of its weight. There are sils weighing 1.36 oz/s/y including the coating that have HH above 35kPa. Durability of the coating is also important, and it not assured by the HH of a new fabric. It is the quality, not the quantity of the coating that counts. You can read all about this in Richard's test articles on this site, and if you do not want to rely on the tentmaker's specs, there are also posts on this site that show you how to build your own HH tester.Jan 23, 2012 at 8:02 pm #1828755
Yep…LightHeart says this 3500mm HH silnylon they use is the same weight as the 1200mm stuff, just a different formulation of silicone to accomplish the higher HH. Sure are alot of people here in the states that would like to get ahold of some of that but it's a Chinese mill special it appears and smaller manufactureres like LightHeart can't afford or won't by in the 3K yard quantities required from these mills.
Samuel, do you know where to get that 1.36 oz. silnylon with 35kPa rating? Is that out of Europe?
I have read a few of Richard's test articles. Fascinating stuff. Perhaps I need to reread them…
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