Need a puffy layer…

[Travis Leanna]

That's interesting Scott; I had never heard that before. Hmmmmmm. Hopefully those more knowledgable than I will offer their insight.

[Chris Jones]

Rick,

Ah, you are intimately familiar with the conditions I am talking about. Hypothermic rain. Granted, Tokyo has some beautiful, clear, dry winter days, but when it rains in winter (or even mists), man it gets cold. Ironically, I never get this chilled in Hakuba.

I think I head over to the Patagonia shop (near Omotesando) to check out their Nano Puff. I had problems with Patagonia gear in the past in terms of fit, but I read somewhere that they retooled their sizes, increasing arm length and decreasing body width, so it may work for me.

Oh, also, I would be wearing this puffy layer over normal "street clothes" (wool T-shirt, dress shirt, light merino sweater). I wonder if the Nano Puff is warm enough to last all night through New Year's eve, standing in line at the local temple to ring the gong…

[Rick M]

del

[Erik Basil]

I've noticed sales on Marmot's Zeus and Venus 800 fill puffys, and that they include inside pockets. I don't know if they include a stuff sack, but they are light.

Anyone with experience on those? Prices are down at about $100 in several places and clearance on REI.

[James R]

Chris, you got some great advice – I'd agree with the poster who suggested a synthetic puffy with 100g of fill. This means Patagonia Micropuff or Arcteryx Atom SV. Thermawrap parka is very nice but it might be too thin to keep you warm in conditions you describe if you find yourself static for a period of time.

[Chris Jones]

Well, the need for a warm jacket is here. This past week we've been having highs of 10 degrees Celsius (50 F) and lows of 0 degrees Celsius (32 F). Rick had mentioned the heat island effect. That probably explains why it never gets below freezing. On the rare occasion that it does snow, it doesn't stay around for long.

I went around town and tried on some jackets, all sized 'M':

OR Trancendent Hoody
Rab Microlight Jacket
Patagonia Nano Puff
Patagonia Micro Puff
MB Thermawrap Parka
MB UL Light Alpine Down Parka
MB UL Down Guide Parka

The fits for all of these items varied. But before I get into that, I wanted to run something by everyone. My understanding is that for best heat retention, it is best for the layer item to fit snugly, not in a constrictive sort of way, but in a way where the item is in contact with the body. With some jackets the torso is very big, so I have a very large air pocket around my body. This pocket of air tends to chill me. However, whenever I put on a jacket with better (more snug) fit in the body, the air pocket is reduced or elminated and I feel warmer.

If that's the way puffy layers are meant to be warm, then the MB UL Down Guide Parka seems to fit the bill (it fits me snugly without being constrictive). The only thing is that the sleeves come up a bit too short. I will either have to just learn to deal with it or get creative.

Other likely candidates include the OR Trancendent Hoody, as well as the Rab Microlight jacket (I prefer a hoody though, but the shop didn't have any).

I did try on the Arcteryx Atom SV, but strangely it was a bit large in the torso area. I already have the thinner version, the LT, and I don't recall it fitting me so loosely. Perhaps I need to go back and try it on again. I did do all of this running around and trying things on on Christmas Eve, and with the shops crowded and all, I wanted to get the heck out of there the moment I entered.

I did think of another use for the jacket–something I can use for breaks on snowshoe/cross country (ski) trips. I'd keep it in my pack and pull it out whenever I stop. So, with that in mind weight is now a concern.

Thanks for everyone's input. Much appreciated.

[Chris Jones]

Hi Rick,

If you're around in Tokyo this weekend (1/20 – 1/21), the weather that we're currently having (3°C Light Rain Wind: N at 11 km/h Humidity: 87%) is the kind of weather I had in mind for the puffy layer.

I went out in my hardshell + Atom LT and still felt a little chilled. Had I not been moving along at a brisk pace I would have been pretty cold…

[Rick M]

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[Richard Scruggs]

Richard —

Are you suggesting that a merino wool top might be a good (better?) alternative to down for OP's needs in cold humidity (cold high moisture)?

When I read the OP's description of his needs, merino wool occurred to me based on my personal experience with merino in cold, wet conditions.

I really like lightweight and mid-weight merino because it provides great warmth in cold, wet conditions, especially when layered, but it's also comfortable in mild conditions with insignificant (at least if lightweight merino) weight penalty.

But I don't know anything about that term you used ("moisture regain") and wonder if that quality is the reason why I like merino for cold humid conditions.

I googled "moisture regain" and found the following definition in an article that evaluated bison hair as an insulating fiber (hey, now that's innovative, although maybe not for native Americans!):

"Moisture regain of bison wool ranged from 13 to 20 percent. This is a broader range than that of sheep's wool, which ranges from 14 to 16 percent. Moisture regain is a measure of the amount of moisture a fiber will hold without feeling wet and is used to understand the comfort level of a fiber. The more moisture a fiber will hold, the more comfortable it is to wear."

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/archive/carringt/bison/wool_fiber.htm

If merino is your recommendation for the OP's needs in cold, wet conditions, it may be that one downside is weight insofar as that's a factor for the OP, but a "penalty" I'm willing to bear.

A merino wool top that has "warmth" (insulation value) equal to the warmth of a given down or synth top is going to weigh more than the down/synth top for the equivalent warmth provided.

Or not very much weight difference perhaps — especially for the warmth retained by merino wool compared to a soaked down or synth garment.

[Richard Nisley]

NO; in cold high moisture environments it is the worst.

The D1909 standard is a test done at 65% RH and 70F. The D2674 Standard, done at 100% RH, results in wool's moisture regain of ~30% as I stated in the my earlier post to this thread.

Natick scientists expressly prohibit any branch of the US Armed Services, including the Special Forces, from using wool as a base layer. Roger Caffin is BY FAR the most knowledgeable person on the BPL forums relative to the characteristics of wool… he also doesn't use wool as a base layer.

[Chris Jones]

Actually, tonight's weather is what I had in mind when I wrote the OP: 0°C, Light Snow, Wind: N at 21 km/h, Humidity: 95%

Per Richard N's post, I will try wearing synthetic base layers to see if that makes a difference.

[Richard Scruggs]

Richard,

Thanks for the clarification about wool.

I'll check out articles Roger has written for more info on wool. Already found one of his articles (Lightweight gear for long-distance hiking) which didn't say much about wool, but he does discuss "wool vs synthetic" in the comments.

So far, my search also turned up this old article by Alan, Will, and Don comparing wool & synthetic:

http://tinyurl.com/Wool-vs-Synthetic

The three testers wore hybrid shirts — half wool (Smartwool microweight) and half synthetic (Patagonia lightweight capiline) — under a variety of conditions.

Here's a photo showing Will wearing the hybrid shirt:

Thanks again for info.

[Bob Gross]

"Natick scientists expressly prohibit any branch of the US Armed Services, including the Special Forces, from using wool as a base layer."

I guess I'll have to pitch out all of my US Army-issue wool long johns (c.1970).

–B.G.–

[Mike Oxford]

Attribution (link) on the US military prohibiting wool?

Because here's a press release from 2011 where they want more of it…

http://leahy.senate.gov/press/press_releases/release/?id=1DCF9FB8-E013-4C74-B603-EF7FE5B30A78

Thanks!

-mox

[drowning in spam]

There's a difference between what Richard said and how it's being interpreted. In any case:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=27497

[Richard Nisley]

Bob,

It was 1985 when your US Army-issue wool long johns (c.1970) were stopped being produced. Are you still wearing them (smile)?

[Richard Nisley]

Mike,

I think there is a BIG difference between the logic of a congressman feeding pork to his distric versus peer reviewed science. Your "linky" is:

Accession Number : ADA187998
Title : Use and Care of the Extended Cold Weather Clothing System (ECWCS).
Corporate Author : ARMY NATICK RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT AND ENGINEERING CENTER MA
Handle / proxy Url : http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA187998
Report Date : 1987
Pagination or Media Count : 55
Abstract : The Extended Cold Weather Clothing System (ECWCS) is a layered insulating system adjustable to personal preference, metabolism, and prevailing weather conditions. The system is designed to maintain adequate environmental protection between +40 deg F and -60 deg F (4 deg C and -51 deg C). The system uses moisture management principles to transfer perspiration away from your skin so you will remain dry and warm. Under certain conditions such as high work activity followed by inactivity, the use of wool or wool/cotton clothing items with ECWCS will reduce the level of environmental protection provided by ECWCS. (RN added comment for Mike – Please note the following statement and its relevance to the topic of this thread) In cold, wet and arctic environments it is recommended that you use only clothing items listed in Appendix A. It is especially recommended that you not use any items which are made with wool or wool blends…

[Bob Gross]

"Are you still wearing them (smile)?"

No, thank God. They kept me warm for the winter of 1970-1971. Actually, they are still OK for sedentary cold-weather use. I would not wear them to ski in.

–B.G.–

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