Feathered Friends vs. Western Mountaineering

[Samuel Kau]

I am looking to buy a sleeping bag for my girlfriend since she has been getting envious of my WM megalite. I was going to get her a megalite but then I looked at feathered friends Kestral and it looks to be very similar to the megalite in fill and fill power and is also even cheaper! Why do people not seem to talk about FF in these forums? is WM better? thanks! FF even has a option to upgrade to 900 fill. I have no experiences with FF but so far have been very happy with my megalite. opinions/experiences welcome.

[patrick walsh]

And my soon to be next bag will be a FF. I think it is really apples to apples. Seems maybe FF is the new WM for this generation. Both make great bags that is a fact. Cant go wrong either way.

[James Marco]

There isn't a lot of difference between the two, both are high end companies. Good stuff *is* good stuff. You will be happy with either.

The difference between 850 and 900 is more a matter of how much you want to put into the bag. 900FP down, generally speaking, lofts slightly higher, but is often offset by heavier shell materials and general conditions. Mostly, at that range, it doesn't really matter. 900FP down, in theory, will be a tad bit warmer. But it will also degrade with dirt and moisture a bit faster for the average camper. If you stick to a strict schedule of washing every 10-14 days out, 900FP down will benefit you slightly. If you go out in damp conditions all the time, you won't notice any difference. If you intend to head in to arctic areas(dry), it will make a huge difference.

Between 800 and 900FP down the big difference is the maturity of the feathers when plucked/sorted. Larger plumes, usually means softer, more compressable feathers. But, a large degree of the lofting is suported by the internal electrostatic repulsion between the barbules, too. If you camp under conditions where this can be removed or much reduced, then 900FP is no better than 800FP. We are only talking a small amount of total loft.

Try this with a "lost" down plume(assuming it is clean.) Wave it around in the air while holding the stem. Take a blow dryer on good and warm (just before it actually burns your fingers) and dry it for a minute or so, shaking it as you do this. You can see how it fluffs and seems to expand. Breath very gently on it a few times and shake it. You should notice it got a bit smaller. This is the difference between the electrostatic repulsion and none. Multiplied over the few thousand feathers in your bag, this can have a significant effect on lofting. Wipe it along the side of your nose. This will put body oils on it. Try the same experiment again…

Clean and dry are the two most important things to maintaining high FP down. A down plume can have as much as 1% of its volume flattened and wet compared with clean and dry and fully fluffed.

Keeping the bag dry and clean means extra work while camping, too. Picking a site means picking a dry site. Pick a dry tent, or tarp, with a LOT of vents. Pick a site you can have a fire at. Pick a site that has no sticks and stones to catch and tear at the shell, or, use a ground cloth (usually the manufacturors will use ultra light shell materials for 900FP.) Not an OK site, a *good* site. Even with 850FP down these tricks help, but become more important with 900FP.

High fill down usually found in high end bags means you need to keep the down clean and dry. The higher the FP, the more work you have to put into them. So, this is the trade off between going for 800+ down and 900 down. This is ignoring the dollars, of course. 900FP down is great! But you really need to *keep* it great.

[Gabe P]

My understanding is that WM uses 900 fill down, but call it 850+ because they feel that to do otherwise would mislead their customers, since 900 down is not new but based on inflated measures. See the post by Dan McHale at the bottom of the following thread:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=56407&skip_to_post=475655#475655

[Sumi Wada]

I have the Grouse (30* bag). I've had it for a year and it's the only bag I've used all year (not a winter backpacker.)

Depending on your girlfriend's size, you should consider the Grouse. It's a "women's" cut; proportions are different from the Kestral and I find it a LOT more comfortable. Even though the dimensions are actually smaller, it feels a lot roomier to me, and I have really wide shoulders for a woman. The fill is less, but the bag is smaller, so the loft/warmth will be the same, maybe even warmer if it fits better (more efficient.) It will also be lighter overall than a men's bag.

The 30* rating is accurate, at least in my experience. I'm comfortable into the low-30's with just lightweight baselayers and a regular Prolite. I don't hesitate to take it when it may get colder since I can supplement with extra clothes plus maybe an extra CCF pad.

[Scott Smith]

I would agree that you'll be 100% happy . with either.. ( I own one of each :) )

One "plus" for the FF is that you can get it in different color combinations, fabrics, etc.. They'll even do sme " custom" work for you. E.g. I had them sew a "pillow pocket" on my Hummingbird

[Richard Fischel]

there are fewer ff bags sold than wm. ff sells from their retail store and thru phone orders. wm sells thru a deal network that has both a brick and mortar and internet presence. with more wm bags in circulation they are talked about more because people have more experience with them. i think if you went on some of the mountaineering forums you might see ff talked about a little more.

both companies interact with their customers differently. try and find a phone number on the wm web page. i'll give the first person who does a $1. if you call ff they will to talk to you about anything they make or sell for as long as you want. ff will also customize pretty-much anything they make any way you want. ff also does a brisk rental business for bags and parkas going to some of the coldest places on earth. a wm dealer can order you a bag with overfill. maybe they can get some other changes made.

i am in no way trying to knock wm. i am just pointing out some of the diffrences between the two compaines. my current cold weather go-to bag is a wm and i think it's one of the best sleeping bags manufactured by anyone. when shopping for my next bag i would consider both ff and wm equally.

[Link .]

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[Rick Dreher]

Owning bags from both, I think I can safely recommend buying based on design, sizing and features because the quality is equivalent. And you can tell your girlfriend she's very lucky :-)

Cheers,

Rick

[Samuel Kau]

Thanks for all the feedback for both companies. I am kind of tempted to get her a FF's bag just so I could compare myself! That's interesting that WM actually uses 900 fill instead of their advertised 850+. I think since the Feathered Friends actually has a little more down in their bag ratings compared to WM I will go with FF since my girlfriend sleeps pretty cold and it is cheaper when factoring potential overfills for WM. Do any of you know if you could choose the outer fabric to Pertex® Endurance UL without upgrading the down to 900 fill? thanks

[Stephan Doyle]

I'm sure FF would do that for you if you asked nicely enough.

FF is a wonderful company.

[patrick walsh]

You can call and ask yourself but i have been through this more than once on the phone. From the three people i have talked to it seems they are really pushing the Pertex Sheild EX on the Expedition weight bags -10 and below. However on the light flight they are using the Pertex Endurance UL you are interested in.

I asked myself about having a bag made in a different fabric on three ocasions and on all three occasions i was told "yes we can do it but it will cost you like $500 extra" That kinda decided it for me in regard to just taking a production bag and not a custom one.

Again call and ask yourself though, they are more than willing to chat and offer their two cents. Their two cents seems to be that what they have on the bags already is what is best and if you want something else it will cost you an arm and a leg!!!

Good luck cant wait to get my -25!!!!

[Richard Lyon]

Both are great, your girlfriend is fortunate either way. WM is available through many dealers, and the dealers will occasionally discount the bags. FF sells mostly from its factory and doesn't have sales very often. As a semi-custom shop FF is a little better at more non-standard bags – special fabrics, extra long size, semi-rec or rectangular bags, etc.

[Richard Fischel]

richard – i always wanted a great auk of my own like they made for you.

[dan mchale]

One of the interesting design differences between FF and WM is that FF uses a tucked hidden seam for its baffles. This means the seems are not exposed and cannot get snagged and cut. I have always liked that feature. It does however open the door for the thread to stress the needle holes when the bag is stretched. I don't think FF has had an issue with that though, or they would have quit their tucked seems long ago. It has to mean more fabric in the bag but not much.

[Erik Sund]

I haven't had FF do a fabric substitution but I just spoke with one of their employees today and custom zipper configurations are an option. There is an extra charge (I was told my request would run $60) and some wait time but I wouldn't expect that it would cost $500 more. (Of course, Patrick might not have meant that figure literally. Or he might have and he might be right.)

[Richard Lyon]

My last FF purchase, described at http://tinyurl.com/7odxy3x, was semi-custom. I called about an overbag for winter, and the rep suggested one of the company's discontinued models, the Great Auk, a rectangular bag. They had a "list" price for this in assorted fabrics. When I asked about Pertex Endurance, which had been promoted some time earlier, FF was happy to make the bag in that. Extra charge for the custom work: nil. In fact using their excess inventory fabric resulted in a modest discount. And FF sent me a Great Auk from its rental fleet to make sure it fit properly over my winter bag, again at no charge. Now this was a pattern the company had on hand, nothing special, but I think it indicates that FF doesn't price custom work intentionally high to discourage inquiries. All customer service over 25+ years has been exemplary.

[MILTON CROSS]

I have two FF bags and one WM bag. As others have stated, both are the excellent – the best quality bags out there. Temperature is a highly subjective matter, but I have found the FF bags to be truer to their rating (for me) than the WM bag. I'd also echo what others have said about FF customer service. One time when purchasing a bag, I talked to a product specialist at FF for 30 minutes, hemming and hawing over the pros and cons of different options. I have no experience with WM customer service, but the fact is that FF staff are available to give you a wealth of information about their products, and with WM, you pretty much get what's on their web site.

Either way you'll get a great bag.

[Christopher Yi]

For the FF bags, what do the #s represent next to the bag name (ie Merlin, Osprey, etc)?

[Sumi Wada]

>> For the FF bags, what do the #s represent next to the bag name (ie Merlin, Osprey, etc)?

Bag girth measurements. (60/56/38) means 60" girth at the shoulders, 56" at hips, 38" around the footbox.

[patrick walsh]

The conversation i had with them in regard to a custom fabric i could be remembering wrong but i dont think so?

I wanted one of the wider bags made in a narrow size and the no discontinued Epic fabric. I was told that that would require a new pattern or something like that and cost about $500? Again i could have my info wrong or misheard but i am pretty sure that is what i was told.

Anyway the customer service is GREAT as i have also yapped their ear off for at least 30 minute 2-3 times now.

My next bag will be a FF, i figure if i dont like it how hard is it to sell and how big of a $$$ loss am i really gonna take $!100-!150 not bad if you ask me?

[jennifer r]

Do you think it’s important for a woman to order a women specific FF? I would love a 10 degree but only see the 20. 20 would be the coldest I would plan to sleep in so maybe with the more accurate ratings it’s ok? I sleep in 30 degrees a lot

[AK Granola]

I have a FF Egret, regular. I am 5’7″ and 160 pounds (as of last year, unfortunately!). I love that bag! I definitely use the hood, and I have slept down to about 35 in the bag, with cold rain and fog, comfortably. I have used it a lot, can’t quantify that, but it has never lost a feather, even with several washings. I love it; it’s super warm, lofts beautifully, resists moisture. I can’t compare with WM, so those are my only experiences to share. It is the most comfortable sleeping bag I’ve ever had (counting at least 10+). I usually let friends borrow gear, but not this one. I don’t lend it out or let anyone touch it! Mine, all mine. I always know I’ll sleep well in this one.

[David U]

I have had bags from both makers.  My preference is FF.  I find they underrate their warmth rating and because they use more durable face fabrics, my FF bags seem to lose fewer feathers.

But honestly, they are both the best in the business. IMHO

 

[Gabe P]

Given that both FF and WM offer exceptional products you might consider focusing on the shell material. I think that’s where you’ll find where they diverge. I’m a fan if the WM Microfiber. Most people seem to prefer the WM Extremelight. The WM GWS is for special circumstances only.

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