Minimal shoes and crampons? An idea…

[Justin Baker]

I'm almost wondering if I should just carry around an extra pair of stiff shoes just for ascending. That's how much I hate stiff shoes.

[David Chenault]

Justin, I don't hate stiffer shoes quite as much as you, but finding a pair with a good fit and no arch support might be worth it for this trip. Even when you don't need crampons, kicking steps is a lot easier with a bit of beef in the sole and around the toebox. Some of the lighter but not superlight Inov8 or Sportiva shoes could suit you.

[Justin Baker]

To clarify, I don't plan on doing anything that would be fatal if I made a mistake. I just want to ascend late spring/early summer snowfields in the sierras. Obviously they are a slipping slide, pretty steep, but not that dangerous unless you hit an exposed rock or didn't have a way to self arrest.
I'm not kick steeping up a near cliff with ropes or ascending frozen mountains.

[Diplomatic Mike]

How about carrying a pair of stiff insoles (carbon maybe) that you can insert when needed?

[Justin Baker]

lol mike, that was actually the point of my first post. That could work, but would need some experimenting. If I used them hard, I might want something high top so my heel wouldn't slip out.

[Hiking Malto]

Are you talking about hiking or mountaineering? You talk snowfields which could mean either. I suspect given your level of experience that you are talking about an early season hiking trip on snow. With early season hiking you may find vastly different conditions as the day wears on. You can use this to your advantage to have optimium conditions for a given area. For example; in the morning the snow may be rock hard and full crampons the best gear for steep terrain. Wait two hours and you can walk without any crampons or spikes. Wait another two and you could be postholing up to your knees.

As far as five fingers. I followed the tracks of someone wearing them coming off Forester Pass on the PCT. It was unbroken snow for miles. Frankly he seemed to do fine in them, no sign of slipping or falling and given his stride he was moving at quite a fast pace. I would never do it but to each their own.

I used to really enjoy early (April/May/June) Sierra trips until I got more than my fill of snowshoeing without snowshoes on the PCT this year. But step into this carefully, the margin for error is much less than a typical summer trip. If you could have seen the devastation in the Sierra this year due to avalanches you would have a whole new respect. There were avalanche trails in areas that I would have never expected to see them and the destruction was incredible. I would reco taking a couple of trips out of Hetch Hetchy up to Vernon or even Tilden Lake, depending on your desired length. That area is a great place to learn snow hiking or snowshoeing in the Sierra prior to more aggressive trips down into the SEKI area.

Finally, use those early trips to test out gear combinations that work for you. It took me three attempts to do the 45 mile Tilden Lake loop out of Hetch Hetchy a few years back. Each time I honed my gear and skills until I was able to succeed.

[James holden]

i think the hardest thing wouldnt be the stiffness … as i noted you can use the french technique if needed … and some crampons and micros are desgined to work with more flexible foot wear

the problem may be the attachement points … those are generally made for a normal shaped shoe or boot … the straps may not hold the crampon properly to yr footwear, or it may cause tightness, bad fit … etc … which can also be a safety issue should they come off mid way

[David Thomas]

Okay, so I tried out my idea. I'll post a pic here and write it up over under MYOG. Needs two tweeks, but a 5" x 15" piece of plywood gave me nice floatation and was comfortable in my softest, most slipper-like shoes (a pair of Merrill's slip-on low-cuts in mesh fabric).

I tried undisturbed snow, shoveled-refrozen snow banks and the icy driveway.

In undisturbed, I got much less postholing (2-3") with the plywood than with the plain shoes (4 to 16"). In refrozen shoveled snow, neither sunk in but like on ice, I got much better grip because of the 8 screw tips pointing out.

400 grams for one. So not SUL, but it only took me 32 minutes to make and test. With tweeks and varnishing, maybe 1.5-2 hours and $8 of materials. So I'd be fine mailing them to myself just before the snowy passes and tossing them when not needed.

Details in MYOG

[Dustin Short]

Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh, cabin fever doesn't sit well with me. I still think finding a crampon will be difficult for the vivo class shoes.

Now picking up a light pair of trail runners with some body stiffness and using them only when necessary with light crampons may be a way to go. This is essentially the technique mountaineers use (lighter boots for approach hike, then switch to heavier boots/double plastic for the more difficult terrain).

I understand hating heavy boots, I do myself (I too grew up wearing skate shoes that turn into basically moccasins as they wear out). I do love my Inov-8 Roclite 315s for hiking though. Very light, lots of heel to toe flexibility but stiff width that strapping crampons for light duty should work out well. You can also usually find them for under $100 (sometimes much less). The 295s and a few others should work as well, under 250gm though they may become too soft.

Yaktrax may still work for your purposes and are cheap enough that you could test them out before hand, but durability is still a concern.

I like David's thinking of simple floatation device (maybe a pair of used tennis racquets…old school snow shoes!). However if you're looking at angled terrain then you'll still want crampon capability unfortunately.

Again I'd recommend giving inov-8s a shot if they fit you, they may be comfortable enough for full time winter use if not at least for snow field travel.

[Justin Baker]

Sorry for the confusion greg. I don't want to climb mountains, I just want to hike places. And that might mean some steep, slippery approaches.
You know, when you want to go somewhere and the rangers tell you there are still snowfields in the mountain passes that require cramps.

[Hiking Malto]

If you like the VFF it we be worth taking those out on a trial run. I would also take backup. Since you are talking snow hiking then there are many options. There were folks on the PCT that went without trekking poles, ice axe or any type of crampons. Most of the PCT passes are very straight-forward. The exceptions are the south side of Forester and Mather. Many of the others are basically a walk up or slide down a moderate to easy incline.

Have fun, early season trips are cool. If you want I can give you a few routes that I've done.

[Justin Baker]

finger shoes might work differently, but I thought I would post this here:
http://www.barefootjake.com/2011/04/microspike-test.html

[Jane Howe]

Well, if you are good at snow and ice terrain, then you do not need any traction device. I hiked on Mt. Baldy a year ago, when others wearing crampons and microspikes over their boots, I was fine with just a pair of La Sportiva approach shoes.

[Richard Fischel]

so jane, how did you get so good?

[Jane Howe]

Well, I learned ice climbing and mountaineering from the best ice climbers and alpinists. They taught me to be light and fast. It is my experience that trail running with minimal footwear or just barefoot is very beneficial. It is amazing that it trains all the muscles that can give me sure footing. However, I still think proper footwear is necessary on snowy and icy routes for safety and protection. The first time I climbed Mt. Rainier with heavy plastic boots. The fifth time I climbed with very light leather boots on Kautz Glacier route (up to WI2). I did not wear approach shoes because I had to prepare for the worst. There are many crevasses on Kautz Glacier route. It is not a heavily traveled trade route. If I fall in, I need the stiff sole and crampons for getting out of the crevass. But when I soloed the Dream Weaver Route on Mt. Meeker, I only wore approach shoes and crampons (about AI2, easy 5th class rock) because that route does not have crevasses. Just my two cents.

[. .]

Welcome to BPL, Jane!

I concur with you to some degree, acknowledging that it can be challenging to judge when to use them or not (hence this thread, perhaps). Several people have climbed Mt. Rainier with trail runners and at least one in sandals, but they also were very experienced and scouted the routes in advanced with more traditional gear so that they knew what they were getting into. There are some fairly light alpine boots out there from Garmont and Salewa that have served me well on Rainier (including steeper, less climbed routes) and other glaciated peaks. My backcountry learning experiences on snow and ice were sans crampons or boots and we faired well also, but it also can slow you down considerably and having traction devices can pay for their weight in travel efficiency in many situations. Some low angle glaciers in the Anatolian highlands, for example, have such bullet-proof ice, I would not venture on them without full steel crampons, even if you only use them 5% of the time. In Colorado, on the other hand, the soft snow often encountered can be quite forgiving.

Knowledge, judgement, and the fear of God are among your greatest tools.

[chris smead]

Hey Bob,
I just saw your post about using yaktrax as opposed to microspikes. Were they adequate? What kind of conditions did you use them in?

[Walter Carrington]

Yaktrax: don't use them, they break; microspikes have completely replaced them in New England.
Microspikes: work well when it's not steep. They don't work so great on hard ice. This winter we have lots of ice/crusty snow. Microspikes work but are marginal even on fairly flat trails here with lots of hard ice. They can roll off your feet on steep slopes. They don't have enough points on the heels, so you have to be careful going down a slope or you'll fall.

Camp Magix and Hillsound Pro trail crampons. These are very similar. They should work on most light shoes. The attachment to foot is much more secure than Microspikes. The crampon teeth are longer and sharper than microspikes and somewhat shorter than real crampons. They are suitable for almost all winter hiking in New England. If a fall means death or injury, I'd want traditional stiff boots and real crampons (and ice axe). I have the Camp Magix and like them. On really minimal running shoes you might need to add some foam padding to the straps.
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4134503&cp=3677347.11360109.3688336
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11755949&cp=3677347.11360109.3688336
Camp makes a number of models that can be used with soft shoes.
The non-Pro Hillsound trail crampons get poor reviews (breakage).

Extending any of these 'less than full crampons' to their limits is something best left to someone with much more mountaineering experience than I have.

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