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Freestanding solo tent with low condensation?


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  • #1789977
    Diplomatic Mike
    Member

    @mikefaedundee

    Locale: Under a bush in Scotland

    It isn't the condensation that is the problem. As others have said, all shelters will suffer from condensation in the right conditions.
    It's how well your shelter will prevent that condensation from becoming a problem is the important thing.

    #1789978
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    Not exactly. PU can be re-coated.

    #1789987
    M Stein
    Member

    @a-k-a

    Locale: Northern California

    Franco,

    Thanks for the heads-up. And if anyone has missed them, these are some good threads on the Scarp:

    http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/forummessages/mps/UTN/48635/URN/5/dt/4/srchdte/0/cp/1/v/1/sp/

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=46823

    My apologies about those Chinese whispers, as I can't at this point find the thread on which I thought I read concerns with TT waterproofing. It's quite possible I am misremembering.

    At the same time, as David reminds us, many fabrics and treatments lose their hydrostatic head ratings over time.

    Are spray re-treatments effective enough?

    #1789989
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    There is a brand of silicon spray that Franco has used (name excapes me) with success. Franco?

    #1790029
    Stuart .
    BPL Member

    @lotuseater

    Locale: Colorado

    I purchased a Copper Spur UL1 in August having had excellent results with a CS UL3. The latter has stood up to torrential rain with condensation on the inside of the fly, but none has transferred to the inner mesh walls or collected inside the tent floor.

    So far I've used the UL1 in low humidity (Colorado High Country) with overnight temperatures dropping to the mid-30s. Ventilation with the fly properly staked out has been fine, and I have yet to see any condensation. When I compared the CS UL1 with the Fly Creek UL2, I consider the former more livable when I'm backpacking solo. I strongly prefer the side entrance, and the cross-bar pole configuration has two real benefits: the tent walls are much closer to vertical than in the Fly Creek, increasing interior space; and the fly door is kept far enough away from the tent that rain won't drip inside when opening the fly.

    None of the other freestanding solo tents I had access to when I bought the Copper Spur UL1 had anything like its space-to-weight ratio for the price. The MSR Hubba felt significantly narrower. I didn't care for the partial coverage of the fly on the Nemo Obi 1P. or the angle of its tent walls. The MSR Carbon Reflex was closest, but cost $100 more.

    #1790150
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    "There is a brand of silicon(e) spray that Franco has used.."

    Atsko is the one, but others have similar stuff, for example McNett Thundershield .
    The can contains something like 50g of silicone and that is more than enough to do 2 passes on the fly.
    Do not confuse this with silicone lubricant. The cans spell out the intended use (nylon re-proofing)
    Do one spray, then wait half an hour or so and do the other.
    silicone spray
    BTW, I am only pretending to spray in the video, the job was already done…
    Also note that if we had rain at that rate after an hour I would have been swimming there.
    (People affected by chemicals wear a mask or don't bother…)
    Franco

    #1790263
    Paul Ashton
    Member

    @pda123

    Locale: Eastern Mass

    If you must have free standinge the best 3 lb solo tent available is probably the Hilleberg Unna. A bit pricey, but meets your wet weather criteria by pitching outer first or all in one (as all Hillebergs do). Re windy – search youtube for akto 80 mph for a video of a Hilleberg Akto not only standing up to 80 mph winds, but being pitched in 80 mph wind. I believe they both have an HH of 5000. Wish I could afford one. Will have to make do with my quarter dome

    #1790267
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    " Best" tent is pretty subjective! I use mainly in the humid and wet SE USA 2 solo tents, single wall TT Rainbow; and single wall Black Diamond Highlite, both under 3 pounds. The Rainbow has been in heavy rain w/30-35 MPH winds and was fine..I am 6 foot, 190 pounds and both have plenty of room.The TT Rainbow is a palace… On 2 wall tents the Nemo Obi 1 looks interesting, is just under 3 pounds. I prefer side entry. I recently picked up cheap a basically new Big Agnes Flycreek 2 like you have. I wanted a 2 wall tent. The flycreek 2 is to me really a one person tent for a 6 foot tall adult, plus some gear, unless it is used by 2 adults of modest stature..

    #1790288
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    "If you must have free standinge the best 3 lb solo tent available is probably the Hilleberg Unna."

    Nice tent. But it is 4lbs, 10oz.

    #1790302
    M Stein
    Member

    @a-k-a

    Locale: Northern California

    Paul, perhaps you mean the Akto? Its packed weight is 3 1/2 pounds.

    Brilliant video! Thanks for the link! I guess that settles the question of how durable their lighter-weight pole and fabric is.

    BTW, Hilleberg is going to do 3-season tents — the Anjan 2 and 3 hoop tents, and Rogen dome. The Anjan 2 will be just under 4 pounts. The Rogen, 4.5 lbs. The fabric and pole strength will be lighter, but still likely bomber as far as non-alpinists are concerned.

    See their 2012 pressbook:
    http://hilleberg.se/sites/default/files/usersmanuals/H12-NewsFlyer-Small-070611.pdf

    #1790331
    M Stein
    Member

    @a-k-a

    Locale: Northern California

    Having now looked a little more closely at the setup videos for the Tarptent offerings that have been mentioned — Moment, Rainbow, Scarp, I'm intrigued. My original criteria:

    – Freestanding: If there are lightweight spreader bars available (in lieu of trekking poles in the case of the Rainbow, as I don't carry them), they would be easy enough to set up on sandy soils.

    – Bathtub: They come with a bathtub interior.

    – Fast pitch: They pitch with interior attached.

    – Low condensation: There are venting options with all of the above from TT. Granted, the vents open directly to the open air, hence will pose an off-and-on problem with bugs, but they're at least provided, unlike in the FC2.

    Does anyone (Franco?) have enough experience to RANK the TT options with regard to routine condensation levels?

    Also, I seem to remember now that the GoLite Shangri-La comes with a Nest option, giving it both a bathtub and full bug mesh. But it isn't free-standing.

    #1790334
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    David,

    +1 for your comment about the OP and the Hubba. I have made a carbon pole set and silnylon fly for a friend with a Hubba, but she is not a large person and had good results in stormy weather using the original tent for sometime; she just wanted it lighter. The silnylon was older stuff, that Roger tested at 3500-5500 mm HH, so I think she will be OK. There are still some nagging concerns about the carbon, though.

    Hilleberg states that the tent, fly and poles of the Una total 3#,5oz.
    Heaven knows where the additional 1#5oz comes from. Maybe they add concrete.

    On an earlier thread of this kind, I suggested buying an Una and substituting carbon poles. My thought was that you could provide your own stuff sacks, guy lines and stakes at minimal weight, and the carbon would bring it down below 3#.

    The OP here reminded me of that thread, but since then, there was an excellent post on still another thread that raised serious questions about the Suolo, which has a dome structure similar to the Una with a cap fly. The poster had used the Suolo in stormy weather, and had serious problems with condensation, plus leakage when a vent was open.

    Years ago, Backpacker magazine set up a bunch of tents on an open bluff, let them be subjected to a violent storm, and reported on what was left standing. It would be helpful to see more tests like that, including how dry inside the tents are afterward. However, even that would depend on the tents being equally well staked.

    So I guess we are left with reports from users about the performance of these tents in awful weather. There have been quite a lot of these on this site. You just have to sift through the other stuff to get to them. That certainly beats no feedback at all.

    #1790375
    Eric Blumensaadt
    BPL Member

    @danepacker

    Locale: Mojave Desert

    I coated the top 1/2 of my TT Moment's fly with a thin 5:1 ratio of odorless mineral spirits & GE silicon. So far, even in driving rains, no misting thru.

    All seams have been coated on both sides. "Belt and suspenders" precautions on coating never hurts.

    #1790435
    Andy F
    Spectator

    @andyf

    Locale: Midwest/Midatlantic

    The Scarp and Moment have mesh covering at the vent, not sure about the Rainbow. But, it is completely bug-protected–the vent might be outside the mesh wall. The Scarp vents don't need mesh due to the double wall design, but they have it.

    The Moment is most likely to experience condensation due to having the smallest interior volume, but it also has what I consider to be adequate ventilation options. The Scarp is double wall, so no real concerns because the condensation will be outside the inner wall. The Moment and Rainbow have liners available. I only use the liner for my Moment in colder weather.

    One night during heavy rain from hurricane Irene, I was dripped on all night by condensation in my Moment without a liner. I didn't even notice until I woke up and saw little droplets on my down bag. My bag has great DWR. I simply shook them off and packed the bag. The down inside stayed dry. Areas where I hike are nearly a temperate rainforest, so I expect to get condensation most nights, even with an open pitch flat tarp. I think the condensation issue is nearly irrelevant unless you use a bag with poor DWR or the shelter is so small that your bag is touching the walls.

    #1790459
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    "I think the condensation issue is nearly irrelevant unless you use a bag with poor DWR or the shelter is so small that your bag is touching the walls."

    Precisely. Well put.

    Re: the Hilleberg Unna. How they get from 3 lbs, 5oz to 4lbs, 10 oz is easy. The 3 lbs, 5 oz is incorrect. The minimum weight without pegs and guylines is 3 lbs, 15oz. I just called Hilleberg. For another reference, have a look at http://www.backpackgeartest.org for the Unna. Minimum weight of body, inner, and poles was 4lbs even.

    Re: The Anjan 2. This will be $570 for a 3 season tent. Nuff said.

    #1790754
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Thank you, David. The 3#5oz came from Hilleberg's website, but I have no doubt you are correct. Thanks again for checking this out.

    #1790761
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    Samuel – I wish it was 3lbs, 5oz, however. That would be one 'bomber' solo tent for light weight for normal sized humans….; )

    Having said that, it is a pretty impressive all season shelter.

    #1790804
    M Stein
    Member

    @a-k-a

    Locale: Northern California

    Andy and David,

    On the point of condensation, I'll differ with you. (At the risk of putting a damper on the dialogue, so to speak.) The disappointment with the Big Agnes FC2 comes from exactly this experience. One recent trip in particular crystalized this. I took a relative camping — a young kid who easily fit in the tent next to me — and both of our summer bags had very big slimy patches on them after being mushed against the tent walls overnight.

    Any tent that claims to be 2-person but is some 40 inches at its narrowest point is a misnomer.

    The overall venting situation made it clear this is not the ideal UL tent. Couldn't get the fly far enough away from the inner wall to prevent the above moisture transfer (even fully, tautly guyed out). Further, during the daytime we roasted inside the tent even after fully undoing the front vestibule, plus pinching up the fabric at the foot of the tent for as much additional airflow as I could force through it. We were on the coast, mind you, where there was a healthy breeze.

    To get adequate venting during daytime, you'd have to tear the tent down and re-pitch it fly-only. I like that setup, but I wasn't interested in pitching the tent twice a day. Add to all this the missing spreader bar at the foot of the tent, and the hefty price. I think this particular tent could use some design tweaks.

    Appreciate your thoughts, Andy, on the TT Moment and Scarp.

    Could you explain the point about the Moment's small size — it seems to have ample interior floor area, at 74×110. The Rainbow is 40×88 and the Scarp 1 is 32×86, while the Scarp 2 is bigger (90×93) but a full 2 lbs. heavier than the Moment. Does the Rainbow or Scarp feel particularly more spacious, in your view?

    #1790857
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    That is NOT good about the FC2. No question.

    I had a Moment and have a Rainbow. The moment has less usable length and much less width. It has less overall volume so while the footprint is not terribly smaller, the usable volume (h x w x l) is. I liked the Moment but at over 6 ft tall, I found that I could very easily hit the sides with my sleeping bag, knocking condensation on my person. I think the new liner would definitely help with this, however. I also wish the top vents were larger to promote better airflow. Having said that, it sets up quicker than any shelter I have used and was stable in poor weather.

    I would still like to try the Scarp 1.

    #1790871
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    Hi,

    I have a Scarp 1 (Solid inner & low cut fly) and it is great tent.

    I have used it only in the UK in temps ranging from about 5C to about 20C in conditions from Sunny days and clear nights to horrendous down pours and 40 mile an hour winds.

    To me the best thing about the tent is the fact I can pitch the fly first if I want.

    If I need a lot of ventilation I can raise up the fly by about 8inches on the transverse pole and a couple of inches at the foot and head end.

    When the outer is pitched by itself 3 people could easily lounge around in side the tent while I have the inner pitched (takes 60 seconds) I have more than enough space for all my bits and bobs.

    I have not owned an Atko but my fiend has one and I can some similarites between the two, the Akto definiley has more durable materials.

    Cheers,

    Stephen

    #1790965
    M Stein
    Member

    @a-k-a

    Locale: Northern California

    Ok, I've begun venturing beyond my ken.

    Returning to Samuel's early point about silnylon's saggyness under rain (post #9 in this thread), can someone please point me to a thread, or simply give a quick pluses-and-minuses, of tent fabric characteristics: 1) sil-nylon, 2) cuben fiber polyethylene, 3) (rayon?) taffeta, 4) polyurethane-treated fabrics, 5) etc.

    Ron Moak of SMD once talked about shelter floors. When I first read it some months ago, it went over my head. The crux is here:

    "Unfortunately a floor made from 30D or 1.1 ounce silicone coated ripstop, does not, will not and cannot offer the same degree of water protection of your traditional tent floor constructed from 70D or 1.9 ounce (or heavier) taffeta.

    "When used in the canopy, these light fabrics compare well to heavier polyurethane coated fabrics. The silicone coating not only waterproofs the fabric, it actually strengthens the fabric fiber. This allows lighter fabrics with smaller fibers to be used. The downside, is that when a heavy force is applied, as is the case of someone sitting or kneeling on a floor, the light fibers can be spread apart, allowing water to penetrate." …

    "So back to my original comment about ultralight bathtub floors being an oxymoron. Making bathtub floors out of light fabrics conveys a false sense of security. The very presence of a bathtub floor makes a statement, 'I'm built for more extreme conditions.' Yet it makes little sense to divert flowing water under the floor just so you can sit on it and force it up into your sleeping area."

    https://www.sixmoondesigns.com/blog/72-bathtub-floors.html

    #1790996
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    > The downside, is that when a heavy force is applied, as is the case of someone
    > sitting or kneeling on a floor, the light fibers can be spread apart, allowing
    > water to penetrate.

    Which is why we never kneel on the floor. We always have foam or an airmat underneath us. That seems to work, at least with the older silnylon. With the current leaky crap which is sold as silnylon it might not.

    Cheers

    #1791027
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    M –

    Here's a not too bad piece by Ian Maley of Wilderness Equipment:

    http://www.wildequipment.com.au/article.php?article=lightweight_tent_fabrics

    Probably the best info we have, unless and until Roger publishes a follow-up, are the two long threads begun and hosted by Richard Nisley:

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=45026&disable_pagination=1

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=44516&disable_pagination=1

    The material used to sandwich cuben fibers is not polyethylene, at least not the polyethylene we are so familiar with (garbage bags, etc.). The generic term is PET, and I've long forgotten what the initials stand for – poly something expanded tetra something. You can read about it by searching mylar on wickipedia.

    Taffeta usually just refers to a fabric without the ubiquitous ripstop weave. Roger has many times noted leakage that begins at ripstop grids, and that can be avoided by not having them, as in tafetta. Doubt rayon would be good for BP. Besides nylon, polyester, and the several fibers used by the military for vests and the like, a lot of us have spent a while at some time or other searching the web for hi-tech fabrics. There are lots of threads and posts on MYOG about the fabrics made by Dimension Polyant, and there are interesting fabrics findable through some of the kite and sailing sites. Sometimes the information about what actually goes into these fabrics is pretty scanty. I went through a phase of obtaining a few yards of the most hyped ones I could find, found they were not especially waterproof, and being quite stiff, made more of a racket than I could ever put up with in a tent. Others feel differently. Pluses for cuben in addition to the requisite light weight, is that it is not quite so noisy, and from Richard's tests, does appear to be quite water resistant given thick enough layers of mylar. It does have its own drawbacks, however.

    Join the fun!

    #1799263
    NW Hiker
    Spectator

    @king2005ify

    little project I have been working on – took my Soulo, removed metal zipper pulls and replaced with reflective glow pulls, and took the heavy stock guy lines and replaced with Nite Ize cord.

    My Soulo tent, without guy lines for 3 season use, low wind and no snow, now weighs 3 lbs 12 oz. This is tent, poles, stakes, carry sacks.

    With guy lines now weighs 4 lbs even.

    This tent has great ventilation, space, strength, versatility, and small footprint. Perfect in my opinion for this discussion category.

    modified Soulo

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