Marmot Ion vs. Patagonia Houdini

[EndoftheTrail]

Pray tell, how do they compare in (1) breathability and (2) water resistance?

[Russell Swanson]

It's been my (limited) experience that the Ion is more water resistant and the Houdini more breathable…maybe. I didn't notice a big difference in the breathability of the two but I didn't have an opportunity to wear the Houdini for more than a day and it was a bit cooler that day. The Ion was definitely more water resistant. Mine held up well under a light rain for over two hours. Ultimately, I my decision was based on price ($50 for the Ion @ Campmor).

I've read that Marmot is replacing the Ion with an update model that may be made of a different fabric, but I can't confirm this.

[EndoftheTrail]

Thanks, Russell.

Right now, a medium blue Houdini costs $135 while a large blue Ion costs $72 (Ions are sized smaller than normal).

I would still buy a Houdini if someone tells me that it is significantly more breathable while still providing good wind protection and decent light rain protection.

On the other hand, if the Houdini is only marginally better or actually more or less the same, then of course I will go for the Ion.

Any and all user feedback on either or both — don't be shy…

[Frank Perkins]

I purchased my Houdini for 82 bucks on sale a few months ago.

Luckily my local Patagonia store in Westport stopped carrying the Houdini so I looked online and saved myself some cash.

"save" meaning, spending less money on this item so I can spend more money on another item.

[EndoftheTrail]

Frank — How are you liking it? What are some of the conditions that you have worn it in? Thanks in advance.

[Mark McConnell]

I have both (Ion-few years old, Houdini -1 year). I like the slim fit of the Ion, but patagonia can be layered under more easily. Both are size Large. Zipper on the Ion has a little trouble. Houdini seems to have a more durable construction (seems, zipper, fabric, etc). About the same size and weight waded up into their stuff pockets. Breathibility is about the same-maybe better with the Houdini. I've realized a lot condensation occurs with me during heavy work outs like running or hard hiking after about 15-25 minutes while using both jackets, so I have to take them off to attain decent breahibility even when temperatures are in the mid 20s.. But these pieces are great for wind protection, very light drizzles, and added warmth when doing light activity or while taking a break. Sometimes, I throw the Houdini over my Patagonia down sweater for added wind protection and offers a nice hood while doing outdoor photography, but I'm sureto have my rain protection handy as well for full water proofness. I imagine both shell would do well defecting cold snow, but wet snow would be a different story. You should be able to find these pieces on sale every so often as I was lucky enough to. I'm really interested in the eVent fabric for both breathability and waterproofness. Anyone experience this fabric?

[EndoftheTrail]

Hi Mark:

Thanks for sharing your experience — and comparison between these two jackets. Reading your post and others, it seems the Houdini is the better jacket — more durable, and with better breathability — but not by a wide margin.

[Mark McConnell]

Correct, overall-the Houdini is the better more versatile light weight wind jacket. I couldn't pass up the sale when I saw it on Pat's early spring online sale. I got mine for around $70.00. Also, call their Dillon Montana store to see if any are in stock -regularly 30 percent off. If I had to put a number on it- I'd say the Houdini is worth 70.00 and the Ion is worth 50.00. And that is as much as I would ever pay for something like this unless of course if I won the lottery. The really nice thing about these two pieces is that they block wind, dry very fast, and are light. Happy Holidays!

I did more research on eVENT and even that will condensate if working hard enough. Best thing is to just take off your shell when going real hard to breath, and once stopped – change layers and/or put shell over top. I'm begining to realize their is no perfect garmet.

[james solomon]

Well heck Mark, I just paid $53 for a Pertex Quantum Ion from Campor. They apparently have a few in every size. I have a Marmot Chinook that is a few years old (pre-Ion I guess). I sweat so much that small differences in breathability go unnoticed. However, I'll compare them both on an upcoming Holiday trip. Maybe Houdini's will be on sale again next spring.

[James Bart]

FWIW, I am returning a recently purchased Ion to Campmor. The jacket I received doesn't seem to be constructed of Quantum and does not breath at all compared to the Golite Ether I am trying to replace.

[EndoftheTrail]

James:

What year is your GoLite Ether? Is it pre-2005 — made with Wisp material with a PU coating inside, or is it 2005 or later — with Wisp HP material and no PU coating inside?

I am asking because I recently ordered a Marmot Ion to replace my pre-2005 GoLite!

[James Bart]

My Ether is uncoated. The Ion that was delivered to me looks, feels and "breaths" like PU coated 1.1 oz ripstop and has nothing to identify it as made using Quantum. Let me know if yours is different.

[Richard Nisley]

I own both a Patagonia Houdini and a Montane Lite-speed. The breathability of the two jackets seems similar to me but, the water resistance of the Houdini is dramatically better. Mountain Walker also described this phenomenon in his 1/30/06 Montane Lite-speed Reader Review.

This dramatic difference in water resistance occurs even after I rejuvenate my Lite-speed’s DWR. The Houdini is treated with Patagonia's Deluge DWR treatment. Patagonia claims their Deluge DWR lasts substantially longer than standard finishes and that their Deluge coated garments will maintain like-new water repellency after years of use. They don’t claim higher water resistance with the Deluge DWR treatment but, that is what I sense occurs.

I analyzed my two wind jacket’s fabric in an attempt to understand the reasons for the difference in their water resistance. It appears as if the Deluge DWR treatment encapsulates the fibers in a similar fashion to the Epic process. Does anybody on the forum understand the Deluge DWR treatment process? The photo on the left is my Montane Lite-speed’s Microlight fabric with new Niwax DWR. The photo on the right is my Patagonia Houdini with the Patagonia proprietary Deluge DWR.

[EndoftheTrail]

James – If online package tracking is to be believed, my Marmot Ion should be delivered TODAY. I'll let you know.

Richard – dang, where were you when I posted this question 3 days ago? :) Oh well, since it's ordered, I'll have to give the Marmot Ion a try…

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Richard,
I think you're absolutely right in that Deluge encapsulates fibers like EPIC does although I do not know how they differ from eachother. I believe this is also the reason why Patagonia doesn't use its Deluge treatment on the few Gore-tex pieces they make because I've understood that the encapsulation process makes it difficult for the PTFE membrain to stick to the face fabric.

[EndoftheTrail]

I like the blue color very much. The jacket is as light as advertised. The size L is actually a bit smaller than all my size M apparels!

Nothing on the jacket or the tags mention anything about "Pertex Quantum". Indeed, the material looks like nylon ripstop,
and feels awfully similar to my old GoLite Helios wind jacket. I can, however, breathe through the fabric. Can
someone tell me how to distinguish Pertex Quantum?

[D G]

There is a Marmot Mountain Works close by me. They had a Marmot Ion that I was thinking of buying and I did the "breath test" on the fabric. The fabric, based on this very unscientific test was not anywhere near as breathable as my montane aero windshirt made from pertex quantum.

Dan

[Richard Nisley]

Ben- See my prior post on how to distinguish Pertex Quantum to answer your question.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/5366/index.html?skip_to_post=38084#38084

[EndoftheTrail]

Thanks, Richard.

As far as this hopelessly near-sighted owner can tell… it
looks like UL ripstop nylon to me. I can breathe through
the fabric noticeably more easily than through my GoLite
Helios, but that's probably not so much the difference
in fabric — but the fact that the Helios has a thin PU
coating.

On the other hand, looking at Marmot's website, the material
used is called "Pertex Quantum N-090 Ripstop" — so that
at least explains the ripstop pattern I saw. Maybe N-090 is
in actuality a nylon material??

I think I'll call Marmot and chat with them.

[Roger B]

Ok Richard your photos are great, and they were not taken with any old digital camera. What did you use?

It seems to me that the fibres of the Houdini are finer? Is this correct, or is it just a function of the magnification?

Well done

Roger

[Richard Nisley]

I took all of the fabric weave comparison pictures at 200x magnification, using a microscope. As a result of the uniform magnification for all fabrics, you can use your monitor to estimate the relative fiber and pore sizes.

In case you want to estimate the actual versus relative diameters, I just took a photo and then measured the diameter of a small needle tip. The needle tip diameter is .014" or .36mm.

[Simas Peciura]

It's very interesting that many people tend to talk about all the different membranes and breathability, but really, does it matter? I think what matters most is the face fabric and especially DWR finish quality, but I haven't found much information comparing DWR quality of various brands. My question is, if Houdini can hold on to 2mm rain drops, is there any face fabric that can withstand bigger rain drops? Or is 1500mm hydrostatic head the point where any fabric will loose its effectivenes, wheter it be WP/B(would loose breathabilty), or windshell(would wet out)?

[Jerry Adams]

Yeah, I have same thought Simas

Maybe DWR is the most important thing, but they don't talk about specs or whatever

I think maybe eVent is a little better, because it has a better DWR

or, if you need a good DWR to keep the front surface from wetting out which will make the membrane not work, then maybe why do you even need the membrane?

[Richard Nisley]

Simas,

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=70722

[Simas Peciura]

Good point Jerry :) So is it fair to say that, if I use Houdini until it wets out, and then switch to a trash bag, the effect would be the same like with a $300 WP/B shell?

Thank you, Richard, I've seen that thread. Lots of great information there.

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