Sep 21, 2011 at 6:01 am #1279601
The (male) CP250 valve / CP Twist Fit Bayonet based canisters (used horizontally in picnic stoves) seem much cheaper than Threaded/Camping gas CV cannisters:
why is this?
why create a new (and flawed?) connection with a vulnerable male valve which requires a plastic protective cap on every cannister?
the horizontal cannister and gas means a plastic tube inside cannister: more cost, must be burnt when recycled= flawed?Sep 21, 2011 at 7:25 am #1781543
I think because they are already standardized in many industries; Torches for kitches, torches for shops, certain beauty accesories, stoves. More demand for such a product that already has existing fits for it.
Really interesting read on adapters:
http://pedaldamnit.blogspot.com/2010/02/jetboil-personal-cooking-system-remote.htmlSep 21, 2011 at 7:46 am #1781553
I think the question should be: why are re-sealable threaded/twist-click canisters so much more expensive?
Do Lindal charge a fortune for the valve?
Or are we just paying for the (undoubted) convenience?Sep 21, 2011 at 4:12 pm #1781775
I'de like to be able to use my Lindal stove (like a pocket rocket) with a propane canister because they're cheaper
For car camping where I don't care about weightSep 21, 2011 at 5:24 pm #1781804
@saparisorLocale: Pacific Northwest
Because the male canisters don't have to talk about their feelings after they're used! Ba-dum-dum-dum! Am I right, people?! I'll be in the Catskills all week!
Note: just a really bad joke, these forums seem heavy lately.Sep 21, 2011 at 6:31 pm #1781844
ROFL – classic! I loved it!Sep 21, 2011 at 10:08 pm #1781954
@hikin_jimLocale: Orange County, CA, USA
Note to all: Lindal valves come in male and female versions. I believe the male valves in the 100% butane canisters with a bayonet connector are made by Lindal. If not, then they're a knock off. Don't confuse "threaded" with Lindal. Lindal valves are used in all kinds of canisters including Camping Gaz, Powermax, standard threaded canisters, etc. A valve is a valve and a connector is a connector. Lindal is a valve maker. Threaded is a type of connector.
I think the real answer is probably a) volume (there are so many of the 100% butane canisters made for the restaurant industry etc. and b) market segmentation. Backpacking specific canisters are aimed at a specialty market where they can get away with charging more.
Note to Jerry: There are Kovea adapters sold on eBay that allow one to use a standard threaded connector backpacking stove with a 16.2 oz 100% propane cylinder. Be danged careful though. The vapor pressure is going to be much higher. Turn it up slowly.
HJSep 22, 2011 at 12:27 am #1781989
> because they are already standardized in many industries;
Yes, volume is one big factor of course.
But the higher boiling point of butane also means a 'butane' canister can be a fair bit lighter too. Combine that with the thin shape and it becomes much easier to meet the DoT requirements. Note however that trying to use one in mid-winter might not be real successful.
CheersSep 23, 2011 at 11:28 am #1782600
Given that liquid flows down hill, is there a reason why abutane only canister couldnt be used in winter by placing slightly above burner height?Sep 23, 2011 at 1:25 pm #1782670
Oh dear. Assuming "winter" = below freezing,
1) You would need a hole in the canister so that air could go in to allow the liquid butane out.
2) The canister would need to be several feet above the canister for there to be enough pressure to force the gas (formed in a pre-heat tube) thru the jet.Sep 23, 2011 at 4:49 pm #1782788
All you need to do is turn canister upside down – it's called an inverted canister – liquid is at the bottom of the canister, gas at the top – when you invert it, the liquid flows out of the canister – you need a pre-heat tube to evaporate – there are some stoves like this that you can buy.
One bad thing is it weighs a little more because it requires a tube to take the liquid to the burner, with a normal stove it just screws on the top.
Another thing is that liquid butane (or iso-butane) flows through the valve and it's possible the valve will get gummed up, with a regular canister stove gas flows through the valve and maybe it doesn't have this problem.Sep 24, 2011 at 2:29 am #1782939
Jerry – Alan specifically said "butane only canister".
At sub-freezing temperatures nothing will come out of the canister, inverted or not.Sep 24, 2011 at 2:35 am #1782941
Yes, I meant a butane only cartridge: was Friday Logic :)Sep 24, 2011 at 7:40 am #1782985
What's butane boiling point, 32F or something?
Below that I think butane would still work in inverted mode
There's still enough evaporation happening to create vapor pressure to push out liquid butane
Also, you could warm it in your sleeping bag or wherever. In use there isn't hardly any evaporative cooling by the canister. With top mounted stove pre-warming isn't as effective because it quickly cools off due to evaporative cooling.
But canisters I see in the store are iso-butane so it really doesn't matter about butane.
If you're doing cold weather definitly use iso-butane if at all possible.Sep 24, 2011 at 11:40 am #1783060
>>>What's butane boiling point, 32F or something?
At sea level, yes.
>>>Below that I think butane would still work in inverted mode
>>>There's still enough evaporation happening to create vapor pressure to push out liquid butane
No. "Boiling point" is defined as the temperature at which the vapour pressure equals atmospheric pressure. Below this temperature atmospheric pressure will be greater than the vapour pressure so nothing will come out.Sep 24, 2011 at 12:27 pm #1783074
These are not completely butane (butane propane mixture), but still cheap around here:
I used them on inverted mode at -25C last winter and did not notice any problems. However, that is still quite a lot warmer than -32F.Sep 24, 2011 at 3:54 pm #1783124
Interesting. The label does say 'butane propane mixture'.
With the aerosol-style canisters you have to find out whether they have a fixed internal tube, a loose internal tube, or no internal tube. Each sort needs handling differently in the winter. They can work if used properly.
But a word of caution – well, 'some' words actually.
It is highly likely that these come from China. My experiences with Chinese canisters has shown two problems so far:
* the screw thread on some has been so badly formed that a stove would not stay connected. This is not really a safety hazard as the valve would simply stay closed under these conditions (I think).
* the fuel may be full of dust, and the dust can block the jets and valve very quickly when used inverted.
In addition, I am not sure whether the valve is a Chinese copy of the Lindal valve. If so, the items may be in breach of copyright. Even if the copyright has expired, I wonder whether the quality control on the Chinese production matches that of the German Lindal group. I emphasise that I do not know, but I would be concerned.
CheersSep 25, 2011 at 6:51 am #1783331
These are likely without the tube as they worked all the way to the end upside down in those cold temperatures. Think I'll sacrifice one half-used can just to see about the dust issue.
I'm thinking about using my normal end of life treatment for the canisters ie. going outside, putting it underwater and piercing it there as this should eliminate the sparks. Now if I do this correctly, the escaping gas should bring the dust into water and leave it there, right? Any flaws in this idea? Which way should the hole be pointing for max "dusting"? Down? Any other things to take into account?Sep 25, 2011 at 4:04 pm #1783477
> likely without the tube as they worked all the way to the end upside down in those cold temperatures.
Likely. Cutting an empty open will confirm. Interested in what you find.
> I'll sacrifice one half-used can just to see about the dust issue.
Very interested in what you find. Yes, I had very bad experiences with one Chinese brand. I returned the canisters to the shop in a bad temper, and they did not argue … :-)
> putting it underwater and piercing it there as this should eliminate the sparks.
I use a Ti tent peg driven into the middle of the valve to break the valve mechanism inside. The Ti does not spark. Works fine for me.
> if I do this correctly, the escaping gas should bring the dust into water and leave it there, right?
Seems right to me.
> Which way should the hole be pointing for max "dusting"? Down?
Seems right to me.
An alternate method is to use the canister upright to the end, then cut it open and look inside.
Another is to run the canister upside down but through a very fine filter. Need the right gear for that though.
CheersSep 26, 2011 at 1:19 am #1783598
These are cheap too: propane butane mix and a standard threaded Lindal valve. No internal tube but lighter when empty than a 100g canster.Sep 26, 2011 at 2:51 am #1783601
Actual weight? Very interested.
CheersSep 26, 2011 at 4:52 am #1783609
A stabilising tri-pod/ cone could allow stable use of these threaded aerosol canisters (like the shown Camping Gaz one)…
Would be nearly full circle back to original EpiGas stoves (which used a big plastic stabiliser base and taller aerosol canisters), but, of course, I am suggesting an ultra lightweight stabiliser.
Possibly the tripod could support a windcreen (canister excluded): a commercially viable windscreen solution for canister top stoves?Sep 26, 2011 at 9:07 am #1783652
The ones I have been using are branded Bernzomatic and are ~80g empty. Aside – I was hoping to find the Campingaz ones in France but no such luck.
Alan – there are good reasons why stoves are no longer mounted on top of tall canisters – stability and weight. A 'remote canister stove', where the canister is connected by a flexible hose, is even better.Sep 26, 2011 at 11:49 am #1783698
Alan – there are good reasons why stoves are no longer mounted on top of tall canisters – stabilityand weight>
I thought a nice wide based supporting tripod / cone should add the stability back:
the 170 cans arent that tall compared to usual 220(shorter) or 500(taller I think) cans.
I was presuming the tri-pod/cone would be lighter than a remote stove at least for commercial stoves, and perhaps even for MYOG (because of the hose).
A an all in one stove like the Gasmate to bayonet adaptor on http://zenstoves.net/Canister.htm might be cheap and useful in summer (avoids the hose, thought I suppose this might imply a heat deflector was of use). Also, I know of no EU filler/manufacturer of bayonet cans, so less green in EU. Threaded campinggaz and gogas cans filled in France and UK respectively.
NB Primus "make"/import 170g threaded cans like that shown.Sep 26, 2011 at 12:39 pm #1783710
There are some very light remote canister stoves made by members here. Mine is 105g, I'm sure Roger has something similar, and Tony has one at an incredible 28g.
The availability of the different types of gas canister varies widely by country, someone made a list but I can't find it now
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