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Lightweight Integrated Canister Fuel Cooking Systems State of the Market Report 2011: Part 1 – Overview and Performance Evaluation


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Home Forums Campfire Editor’s Roundtable Lightweight Integrated Canister Fuel Cooking Systems State of the Market Report 2011: Part 1 – Overview and Performance Evaluation

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  • #1279574
    Addie Bedford
    BPL Member

    @addiebedford

    Locale: Montana
    #1782025
    Keith Selbo
    Spectator

    @herman666

    Locale: Northern Virginia

    Roger is certainly correct in saying the laws of physics can't be violated. An automatic pressure regulator is a convenience. With a good one, the same valve setting will put out the same heat from a full canister to a nearly depleted one. That capability should save fuel because the user doesn't need to do (or forget to do) the regulating manually.

    Perhaps I missed it, but nowhere in this article did I see the weight(s) of those thick-walled steel canisters included. Something I find a bit odd at a publication named "Backpacking LIGHT". Alcohol can be carried in a thin-walled plastic bottle, and a soda can stove can weigh as little as half an ounce, but you make the comparison difficult by not giving a weight range for canisters.

    While I found the test data informative, I thought the data presentation was unnecessarily complicated. After a few seconds to heat the bottom of the pot, the temperature curves are essentially straight lines. I've tested a lot of stoves and found this to be the case generally. Given that, most of what this long article said could be summed up by a simple table or two giving "Power to the Pot" figures under the wind and ambient temperature conditions you tested.

    This number allows the user to easily estimate boil times for different volumes of water at different starting temperatures. It gets really easy if the power is given in calories and the temperatures are in degrees C instead of the significantly more arcane BTU's per Hour. (each 1000 calories heats a liter 1 degree C)

    I extracted the calories/sec to the pot from your plot and was able to synthesize your efficiency numbers and boil times to reasonable accuracy. If I'd had access to the original data, the accuracy would have been even better.

    #1782066
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    The weights of the canisters are assumed fixed. The weights of the stoves are variable, which is what needs to be compared.

    Why would you bring up alcohol when this is a canister stover review?

    #1782082
    Ross Bleakney
    BPL Member

    @rossbleakney

    Locale: Cascades

    I think the weight of the canister is relevant when it comes to the big picture. This article is outstanding. It compares apples to apples. It also does a great job in addressing the big picture, in that it suggests that you can often save weight by carrying a heavy system like this (if you need to boil enough water). The "gas mileage" section is an excellent way to look at that.

    I think it be great if there was a followup article comparing a few stove systems, and the fuel needed to heat water. The gas mileage section is a good start. At what point, though, does a canister fuel stove save weight (over an alcohol stove)? Two gallons, five gallons, ten gallons? At what point does an integrated canister system save weight over that? A chart with a few graphs would give a good idea of when it makes sense to carry alcohol, and when it makes sense to carry a canister (from a weight perspective). At this point, I think all that is needed is just crunching the numbers (assuming the numbers on alcohol stoves is sitting around).

    #1782086
    Michael Pinkus
    Member

    @mpinkus

    Locale: Western Canada

    Ross,
    If you go to thruhiker.com they have a very nice write up with charts and graphs on the efficiencies of stoves over time. It's quite an informative article.

    cheers,
    Mike

    #1782108
    Keith Selbo
    Spectator

    @herman666

    Locale: Northern Virginia

    "The weights of the canisters are assumed fixed. The weights of the stoves are variable, which is what needs to be compared.

    Why would you bring up alcohol when this is a canister stover review?"

    The canister weight is very important to someone who's trying to decide if one of these stoves is a better choice than an some other type of stove. You're assuming that anyone reading this article should be doing so only to decide which of these stoves is best. That isn't the case. I read it to decide if I should consider any of them over the other choices out there.

    #1782132
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    The canister weight for a 4oz Isobutane MSR canister is 6.7oz. It will be fixed for all the stoves used. Now should you want to use a canister stove, and want the lightest, then the only thing you should be concerned about is the varying stove weights.

    #1782164
    Alex H
    BPL Member

    @abhitt

    Locale: southern appalachians or desert SW

    Ross,
    Will did a great comparison back in 2006 of 6 systems and as I remember alcohol beat out a top mount canister up to a trip length of 7 days.

    You can find it here

    David,
    my scales say an empty MSR canister is 4.8 oz. and a Snowpeak is 5.3

    #1782396
    Michael Fogarty
    BPL Member

    @mfog1

    Locale: Midwest

    I recently used the Jetboil Sol Alum, on a 6 day hike in the Tetons and loved it, other than the balky piezo lighter. I had to play with the wire to alter the spark location, seems to work OK now? I love the speed and convenience of system, a small canister and the burner unit will store inside the pot/mug. The speed in which it brings 16oz to a boil is amazing and the boil indicator actually works quite well. Its my go to stove now, its worth the extra weight for me personally.

    #1782416
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    ya gotta luv it when all these hidden jetboilers come out of the closet ;)

    that said, ive been noticing a bit more of a trend on BPL less about absolute weight and more about function and convenience/comfort … ie value IMO …

    jeboils, "framed" (or at least with stays) packs, double wall tents (or single wall with add ons), neo airs, etc …

    #1782452
    Clayton Black
    BPL Member

    @jivaro

    I have used a Jetboil Flash extensively in cold wet conditions. I simply do not trust the igniter. It fails or refuses to ignite way to often. My son brought his down with the same results. I carry a mini bic as a main fire starter – problem solved. Since only the large canisters are available in Ecuador (so as far as I have discovered) I only use it when I am accompanied now. The less than 2 minute boil times means the sweet nectar of java is warming my body that much quicker but the weight penalty and failing igniter has me leaving it behind more often than not. I recently purchased a caldera cone keg system and have used it several times with satisfying results.

    I would seriously consider the Sol Ti if I could find the small canisters.

    #1782506
    Jim Sweeney
    BPL Member

    @swimjay

    Locale: Northern California

    At least now, Eric, we don't need to go in disguise when we take our jetboils to the back country. The weight of that false beard was killing me.
    In general I think you're right; there's a kind of pendulum swing, where you look at how absolutely light can you go, and then consider what you might gain by "spending" a few ounces–use a 9 oz Neoair vs. a 3 oz piece of foam, avoid back surgery, that kind of thing.

    Clayton–I've also had problems with the igniter on my Snow Peak GigaPower GST-100a. For long periods of time the igniter won't work, then one day it will start working again, for no obvious reason. So, like you, I have to carry a back-up Bic.

    #1782566
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    "David,
    my scales say an empty MSR canister is 4.8 oz. and a Snowpeak is 5.3"

    I just weighed a new, full 4oz MSR canister on my digital scale and it shows 6.7oz.

    #1782582
    Alex H
    BPL Member

    @abhitt

    Locale: southern appalachians or desert SW

    David,
    sorry I was talking about 8 oz. canisters, didn't think about the 4 oz. ones.

    #1782585
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    Thanks Alex.

    #1782869
    Paul McLaughlin
    BPL Member

    @paul-1

    Boy, I would love to see a repeat of the snow-melting test in 20 degree temperatures instead of 45, and just for fun with a Simmerlite and an inverted canister stove thrown in there. That would answer all my questions about the most efficient system for melting and boiling for my backcountry ski tours.
    Oh, and the test needs to be run until each stove has used up a full 220 gm canister, so we see how much performance tails off.
    How 'bout it, Will?

    #1782938
    Stuart R
    BPL Member

    @scunnered

    Locale: Scotland

    "the test needs to be run until each stove has used up a full 220 gm canister, so we see how much performance tails off."

    Indeed it will, but this will depend very much on the gas used. Jetboil Jetpower gas (and MSR IsoPro) is mainly iso-Butane and so should continue to work at 20F (-6.7C) with a (small?) drop in performance when used with the upright stoves – Jetboil or the Gnat. A propane/butane gas mix would be very different – it would stop working altogether at about 1/2 full.

    The inverted canister stove and the Simmerlight should work with no drop in performance at all.

    #1783763
    Inaki Diaz de Etura
    BPL Member

    @inaki-1

    Locale: Iberia highlands

    Article says:

    > A conventional top-mount stove is simply not as fuel efficient as an integrated stove

    I understand this is all quite complicated as the variables are many but I must say I consistently get these results from a conventional top-mount:

    52 pints heated / 8 oz canister

    Burner is a Coleman F1 UL (77 gr)
    Pot is the most common Titan kettle (90 gr without the lid)
    Lid is the usual aluminum foil (aprox. 3 gr)
    Windscreen is made out of a pie baking pan (aprox. 8 gr)

    For a total of 178 gr or 6.3 oz

    Water is heated, not boiled (hot enough for the typical meal rehydrated in a bag). Moderate/low flame. All pints were heated on the field in the summer mountains so it's as representative of real conditions as it can get.

    This is quite as good as the best integrated stove in the review for 1+ oz less weight. I never noted (or cared about) the heating time, it was acceptable; one minute more or less won't usually make a difference to me. I know the comparison with the report tests may not be fair though. I just wanted to show what can be made with a most conventional, simple burner.

    In my limited experience, I think a good windscreen is key even in calm conditions. That and a low flame, a properly sized pot and some discipline to keep an eye on the operation to turn the stove off when the water is hot enough. And I like the simplicity and low bulk of the whole arrangement (even the shabby looking windscreen) over the more polished and colourful Jetboil.

    It's still good to see Jetboil tried to make it light and efficient.

    Great report, as usual.

    #1783792
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    > a good windscreen is key even in calm conditions. That and a low flame, a properly sized pot

    How very true!

    > some discipline to keep an eye on the operation to turn the stove off when the water is hot enough.
    And not leave the stove running for a few minutes through lazyness – a very common problem with liquid-fueld stoves since they take a bit of priming.

    Cheers

    #1783864
    Warren Greer
    Spectator

    @warrengreer

    Locale: SoCal

    The integrated stove is good for that really long trip vs. an Esbit stove which is good for week-long trips and much lighter, especially at an near the end of a trip. It has no empty canister to carry back home. But the Esbit is slower to heat the water, though it has never bothered me.

    With the kind of progress noted in these integrated stoves, it may not take too many more years where they are competitive on a shorter trip basis. (though five days is long for me, for sure. Its neat to see the improvement and the convience.

    Will and Janet, monumental effort. What BPL should be all about.

    -PS please don't spank me cause' I brought up Esbit in a gas stove discussion. It's relevant just like Ross' alchohol comments.

    #1783877
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    one note about windscreens for jetboils …

    i just sit with it between my boots /shoes and huddle around it with my back to the wind … seems to work decently enough

    if its windier … repeat with addtional bodies around it …. they wont complain over a chance to warm their hands …

    #1783894
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    "PS please don't spank me cause' I brought up Esbit in a gas stove discussion. It's relevant just like Ross' alchohol comments."

    I won't spank you but no, the alchohol commentary was not relevant in a discussion about CANISTER STOVES.

    #1783938
    Raymond Estrella
    Member

    @rayestrella

    Locale: Northern Minnesota

    Great article Will.

    Ever since I saw the Eta Express in action I was hooked for multiple person hikes. While I normally use it for trips that Dave and I share cooking gear I have used it for a group of seven on one trip (9000' elevation). At 90 seconds to boil 2 cups of water for 5 freeze-dried meals it had no problem taking care of everybody. By the time the next meal had its water measured and the package prepped it was time to reload.

    >>Boy, I would love to see a repeat of the snow-melting test in 20 degree temperatures instead of 45, and just for fun with a Simmerlite and an inverted canister stove thrown in there. That would answer all my questions about the most efficient system for melting and boiling for my backcountry ski tours.
    Oh, and the test needs to be run until each stove has used up a full 220 gm canister, so we see how much performance tails off.

    I think it would be better to see how long it takes to hit a target amount and measure the fuel that it took to get there. Most trips see me melting at least 4 L at a time, the first 3 go into insulated holders and into the sleeping bag and the last is for dinner and drinks.

    I have only used white gas or my Coleman Xtreme for snow melting duties but would be interested in seeing if these stoves could handle it at 0 F temps.

    #1784000
    Inaki Diaz de Etura
    BPL Member

    @inaki-1

    Locale: Iberia highlands

    By the way, I'm puzzled by Ryan's results:

    > We boiled 30 pots of water on a single 100g fuel canister in conditions that averaged 45 degrees, windy, and rainy

    > for 30×0.7L pots of water

    That'd make about 42 one-pint boils. This is almost twice as efficient as stated in the test results (50+ one-pint boils for a 8 oz canister). Am I missing something?

    #1784140
    Brett Ayer
    Spectator

    @bfayer

    Locale: Virginia

    I think the review is very informative and fair.

    I have the JB Flash and the JB SOL AL.

    As for fuel consumption in the real world. We took the SOL Al on a 6 day E2E of Isle Royale NP this summer, and after heating water for 2 meals a day for 3 people for 6 days, we still had fuel left in the 1st canister.

    We left the used 1st canister and the 2nd full one we brought along at the ranger station (for the hiker box) when we got on the sea plane to leave.

    We did not weigh the canister or time our boils, but I know I have never used that little fuel on any 6 day hike in my life. I am a JB SOL believer.

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