Done with stoves, no more

[James holden]

i see no reason not to have a fire where its allowed and the restrictions arent in place

whether you do so or not is yr own personal choice … but just as there are people who tell others that they shouldnt do what they legally and ethically can … same here … just do it if you want

on a wet or winter night … a fire can be a lifesaver

just clean up after yrself

[Justin Baker]

No, just that fuel levels are not an issue at all in many places and you wouldn't be hurting anything. I don't see a huge necessity to carry a for purpose wood stove if you not in an area that doesn't get a ton of use. You can dispose of your coals appropriately. Wood stoves are great and efficient but not always necessary.

@ken, Yes, high apline areas a big issue, especially considering how popular many of those areas are. If you stomp your coals into just powder and ash, the heat dissipates quite quickly. Enough for you to finish your lunch, throw over dirt over, and be safe. I usually dig a small ditch to contain any sparks and easily cover it.

[Raymond Estrella]

Really? You are hiking in winter (do you, by the way?) and find that you need a fire to live? It can happen, I give you that, if everything in your hiking plan went horribly wrong. In that case burn down half the forest as long as you and your group live through it.

I spend about 20 wet winter nights a year and have never made a fire in winter. Have you needed one in your winter experience, Eric?

Let's not pretend that we are explorers braving the wilds. We are modern backpackers, proud that we can go anywhere with 5 lb of gear. Do we need to add that it is as long as we have a cord of wood to burn each night?

I just got back from a trip in the Paul Bunyan State Forest. I carried a Caldera Cone Keg F and 0.75 oz of fuel for it. Total weight, about 6 oz. For you cook-on-open-fire fans, how much weight do you carry to be able to cut wood? (Weigh that "light" hatchet.)

I'm sorry. I will totally understand open fires in a survival situation but will never condone them to cook on when backpacking. And for heat? Really? Get in your sleeping bag. That will conserve your heat better that any fire will provide.

[James holden]

nope … been happy to have one to warm you up and dry yr gear? … yup

dont impose yr values on others … just because you dont want one doesnt mean others shouldnt where its legal and reasonable to have one

if you really want all fires out … just petition yr legislature to ban all fires

its that simple

there are plenty of people here who do have fires here judging by comments about UL gear surviving (or not) embers, and other such comments

dont like it? … too bad … thats life … where its legal to do so, its my choice not yours

[Raymond Estrella]

“dont impose yr values on others … just because you dont want one doesnt mean others shouldnt where its legal and reasonable to have one”

Ah, it is the “reasonable” part that comes into play. My values? You are posting on what may be the highest “values” site I have ever seen.

“if you really want all fires out … just petition yr legislature to ban all fires its that simple.”

No, I don’t want to legislate anything. Just appealing to common sense seems practical to me.

“there are plenty of people here who do have fires here judging by comments about UL gear surviving (or not) embers, and other such comments”

Huh?

“dont like it? … too bad … thats life … where its legal to do so, its my choice not yours”

Yep, you are correct. Burn away and survive those cold wet nights… ;-)

[Ken Thompson]

FYI Alpine lake is below 5500 feet.

[d k]

If you're making fires in CA alpine areas, then I think you are disregarding the fuel limitations (leaving downed wood to replenish the nutrients in what soil there is).

And I have come across fires that have been "stomped" out as you describe – one of them was about ready to flicker into flame, having burned in the soil after being stomped and covered up with duff. And this was in a rain forest area, not in dry California. At least douse the fire completely with water before leaving.

I understand the appeal of fires, and I think they are probably OK in heavy forest where there's plenty of downed fuel, as long as proper precautions are taken. But I'm not going to be making fires myself (other than Backcountry Boiler ones) unless it's a survival issue.

[Justin Baker]

Eric, just because something is not illegal doesn't mean you should do it without restraint.
On the beach I have often hiked with very little as far as sleeping insulation. I just used a fire to keep warm. There is just wood everywhere. When I finally get around to hiking the whole lost coast, I will probably do the same (unless there is rain).
No, I would not be proud of walking around with a 5lb pack. Ultralighters are not really minimalists, there just people exploiting technology to carry more and more with less weight. All that have a SUL pack shows is that you have spent a lot of money and a lot of time thinking about or crafting gear. I would be much more "proud" of myself if I carried an old school wool blanket pack with my hatchet and braved the woods with just that, even though the gear would be heavy. I guess that's just "how I roll"…
By the way, you can carry a 2oz saw blade and improvise a bowsaw from a sapling. Also, if all you needs is wood for cooking, it can be done with 3 oz mora or a 2oz neck knife. I could probably put together a 3 season 1.5lb basewieght of basic gear, provided that I wanted to get bushcrafty and improvise stuff in nature. Even in wet weather, I would probably only need 1 hour to get my camp set up. But we are just talking different styles. Maybe I will do that "virtually" for fun (yeah, I can' afford fancy gear).
There is nothing wrong with your style. Inuits never really had fires either, until they got their hands on steel and didn't have to carry around huge hides. I know that modern gear has changed that and an axe is no longer a lightweight alternative to 12 lbs of blanket, but light saw blades and space blankets and semi translucent plastic have offset that. Have you ever seen a mors korchanski super shelter? Those things are ridiculous (just clear plastic and a space blanket). You could sweat yourself out with just a small fire in the dead of winter.

"Common sense" tells that me that under the right conditions, someone can enjoy or utilize a fire, even an all night fire, with minimal impact…you know, because I have done such a thing with little impact and have left no trace.

[Nick Lagos]

what an interesting topic – its hard not to agree with everyone – my wife and i discussed it

something that hasnt been brought up is the negative environmental impact from:

– making canisters and stoves
-producing and packaging gas
– getting all the people that produce these things to their jobs
– transporting the paraphernalia of camp cooking around the world
-etc etc

i know that these are not reasons for everyone to start lighting fires but worth factoring in when looking at the overall impact of cooking in the back country

someone (with time) should do an envionmental impact study comparing the many methods of cooking at a camp site – this might help us determine the method of least impact

this obviously cant help us make allowances for the lowest common denominator bush walker

thanks for the great discussion

[Ty Ty]

Out of curiosity, once the sun goes down, it's dark and you are sitting around camp…what do you do? Sit and chat in the dark? Star watch?

It seems like sitting around the fire, roasting marshmallows, chatting by the light of the fire is the focus of camping after dark. I am open to other things but what?

[Terry Trimble]

Justin baker said:"On the beach I have often hiked with very little as far as sleeping insulation I just used a fire to keep warm."

Us Surfers hate you guys that do this not in designate fire pits we step on hot ember/coals left by you in the sand and burn are bare feet when walking on the beach to line up.

Using Open fire in California or other states that have high fire danger is just disrespectful to your fellow backpackers and the general public. The mayhem cause by wild fires is not worth the price of looking at fire for a few hours to cook on and look at and get warm and trying to be a future primitive pretending to be a mountain man.

How many of you have seen the aftermath of wild fire up close and personal after it put out.
I have because I have lived in Los Angeles county and in boy scouts we replanted parts of the Angeles national forest above my home in La Crescenta ,Ca. That fire scared everybody in La Crescenta because we thought are home were next we were all standing up on our roofs wetting them down in case ember floated down.

Living in San Diego county since 1975 I have seen way to many wild fires destroy peoples dreams, homes, Avocado groves and heartache for the families. I have hiked through plenty you come back with soot and black marks all over your pants. I have seen the great giant manzanita forest on the aqua tiba trail in the cleveland national forest leading up to Palomar mountain destroyed. The manzanita stood 10 to 15 foot high that took probably 100's of years to grow that high and you could walk through a tunnel of manzanita on the trail. It was very cool now it gone.

Most wild fire burn through quickly and leave the branches and trunks of the the chaparral scorched to bloom again in the spring.
The worst Fire after math I have seen was in the Valley Center/ Warner springs/Pala indian reservation area the fire burned so hot that it burned every thing in it's path to nubs in the ground it looked like moon scape,In other words scorched earth.

Then their is the after math of the fire pollution of the streams and rivers and mud slides.
Wild fire are not just a southern California phenomenon they happen in almost every state now.
Having camp fires in non designated area in any state is just plain carelessness.

Terry

[Jason McSpadden]

I've always liked this quote from Don Tryon, "The domestication of fire is man’s greatest technological achievement. For perhaps a million years using and watching campfire has been a life supporting, recreational, intellectual and spiritual experience."

Don Tryon makes and sells the wonderful Purcell Trench grill for fires.

Jason

[Ultra Magnus]

You guys do realize that wildfires are a natural part of the life cycle for a healthy forest, right? Has anyone been in the San Bernardino mountains of southern California? Half the trees are standing dead wood from bark beetle infestations. In a natural cycle, lightning would strike, fires would burn down the old trees and make room for new growth. But now towns are built up in the middle of the forest so as soon as there's smoke, fire crews go out to put it out to try and save homes. So, dead trees stand, the forest looks like crap and bark beetles thrive.

BM

[Joseph Reeves]

We cook exclusively with fire whether on kayaking trips of 3 weeks or overnight backpacking. Granted we live in the largest National Forest — Tongass — and most of our fires are on the beach. Still it seems, as with anything else, it is the degree of responsibility one takes with the fire and the place it is built that is the primary issue here.

I certainly can understand the concerns about random fire pits in heavily traveled areas, but it also seems sensible for those areas to have specified camping spots. Providing fuel for those fires might offset some of the problems that have been mentioned above.

I do not understand, and do not support the Forest Service's hypocritical call for leave no trace in the same national forests in which they allow to be clear cut.

[joseph peterson]

I only hike in CA, so I guess my opinion only applies here. Personal campfires for cooking or enjoyment simply have no place. Times have changed and we need to change with it. We cannot keep living like the old days, these are new days.

I hike solo mainly and never have a fire. I'm never bored without them lol. There is something liberating about sitting in the dark alone miles from the nearest trail. If you think a campfire is a spiritual experience….try what I suggest.

[Rodney OndaRock]

I have a hard time reconciling this. May be I should take it to the Philosophy thread

The forest service does these prescribed fires to burn dead wood fuels. A couple of years ago, after the forest service was done, and the fire department staff went home, the fire re-ignited and burned acres.

2009
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/08/prescribed-fire-yosemite-national-park-out-control-more-20-times-its-intended-size4448

2004
http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/2004/articles3/fire_raging_in_big_bear_mountain.htm

so my beef is with this "holier than thou" attitude.

The forest service is allowed to burn wood to get rid of the excess fuel, but individuals are not.

Some campers mess up and cause forest fires. but so does the forest service and their highly skilled fire dept.

the eco pollution impact is the same. burn is burn, regardless who does it.

when a camper does it, the law labels it arson.
when someone in uniform does it, it's science.

I would like consistency. the posted signs prohibit gathering wood and burning, because they are part of the ecosystem, and should decompose mulch naturally.

but that goes to the side, when the forest service gathers the dead wood and burns it.

so the only way for me to enjoy a bonfire in the forest, is to volunteer with the forest service, so I'll be like James Bond, licensed to kill trees, and not be cited as an arsonist, threat to society.

enough of my rant.

[Fred Thorp]

"I have a hard time reconciling this"

You need to understand… we do not want accidental fires, including naturally caused, which may or may not be considered accidental, so we can administer "prescribed burns"… like Mother Nature intended.

[Hamish Reid]

Surely it comes down to your local environment, local laws and choosing appropriate techniques.

Here in NZ's South Island, we have wet forests on the west coast, and most downed wood quickly wets out and rots. Fuel for fires is relatively scarce and because of this wildfires are rare, and hikers are unlikely to be able to burn enough wood to affect nutrient cycles.

On the East coast though, forests are typically dry, downed wood is usually burnable, and wildfires are more common (similar to forested areas I have visited in the Wind River Range, and around Whitehorse in the Yukon, sorry not to have seen more of North America yet). In these areas, around established campsites, the impact of fires is often pronounced.

Interestingly, I used to shun fires as a relic of the dim past (I grew up in on a cattle station/ranch where at times we still boiled water for a bath and cooked over an open fire). Since being exposed to Leave No Trace techniques in the US, I actually use fire more often!

[Brian UL]

This topic comes up again and again. Seems a lot of people have some false assumptions about what a responsible wood fire is.

– fire rings are for "establishing a site" they are in no way shape or form needed to make a fire. in FACT building a fire ring is usually the first sign someone doesn't really know what they are doing! I always leave it to the authorities to establish a site it is not my place to do so.

– Wood fires for cooking are very small and use a tiny about of dead wood. Read- branches from off the ground. Many anti-wood fire people imagine a large bon fire where people must chop down trees and split logs to boil some water. That would be another sign that the person is not versed in responsible fire making.

– You can put out the kind of small fire that a backpacker would use with a very high certainty that it is out for good. Large fires can light roots underground and throw a lot of sparks if you use soft wood. But small fires are very easy to control. I wrote a post showing how its done in detail years ago. Its a shame most people do not know how to do this.

– Obviously there are places where fires should not be lit period. And we have a forest and park service to tell use where and when. Plus it is still very possible to start a forest fire with a white gas, canister or alcohol stove.

– I never used a hatchet. They are far less useful than an axe and far more dangerous because a missed swing will send the short handled blade into your leg and there heavy! When dealing with small twigs and branches its totally possible to break them with your hand and only carry matches. But I do carry a fixed blade knife (3 oz w/ sheath) because its sometimes very wet in the northeast and a knife makes life a lot easier when I can spit wet branches and make dry shaving ect.. Every once in a while I will bring a folding saw if Im expecting it to be really wet and intend on using established fire rings.

Responsible wood fires are more ecologically sound than canisters by a long shot. They are lighter too.
But when I think of no stove I think no cook foods. I m always happier the more foods I have that I can just eat with out any prep or clean up. Having the option of making a fire is nice if I ever need a warm drink or a hot meal. I usually carry my Back-country boiler if I need to heat something up.

[Justin Baker]

Terry, I always put it out with water straight from the sea. I have stepped on hot coals as well and it's highly avoidable if you take a minute of time to get some water from the ocean that is right in front of you.
There are many, many places that I would never consider a fire and many places that I would keep the fire extremely small because of fire danger. I have had to cut/rip out dry grass in oak savaahnas just so I had clear area to use a stove! But it all depends. California has scrublands and deserts and high alpine mountains and rainforests. It's not really fair to generalize the whole state.

[Bob Gross]

"I have had to cut/rip out dry grass in oak savaahnas just so I had clear area to use a stove!"

Yup. So much for leave no trace.

–B.G.–

[Ty Ty]

Brian – can you link to your thread? I know I could use some lessons in building a smaller, easier to sustain fire with less fuel.

[Brian UL]

@Ty
That post threw off a lot of people because I used a caldera cone and they thought I was making some kind of review of it. I just happened to use it but the technique is the same. Maybe I will do a proper one sometime?
its pretty easy but you can get your hand dirty so some people don't find it an attractive method but- using your hand on the last steps is important so you can feel any warmth in the coals/ground.

assume a fire only as big as a few handfuls of twigs:
– brush away any duff so you get to bare ground where you intend to light the fire.
– make sure there is are no roots near the surface that you can see/feel
– light fire, cook, eat.
– when done, dowse coals in water until they are cool enough to handle
– fill up your pot with water
– scoop up coals and ash and soak them in the water in the pot.
– feel around in the dirt where the fire was to feel if there is any hot/warm spots.
– check the coals and ash in the water (in the pot) to make sure they are fully cool and soaked to the touch.
– dump on to the ground, dousing the ground once more in the process.
– you will basically have a little mud puddle that you have verified is now thoroughly soaked and cool to the touch.
– replace duff as it was when you got there, hiding evidence you where there.
– it is very important that you are POSITIVE and have no nagging doubts later that it is in fact out and poses no fire hazard later. This is why I think its so important to touch everything and get your hands a little dirty. Although I think the ash acts a little to help clean and sanitize your hands as well as the pot.
-You can do the same process with the ash left over from wood stoves to make sure there is no possibility that a fire can be started from the ash later.

[zorobabel frankenstein]

I agree with the title OP, no more stoves! Cold meals are just fine :). In winter and when melting snow things change…
I've never started a camp fire while backpacking and I've never felt the need or had the desire to do it; same story with my wife. I might be tempted to use a woodburning stove (never used one yet) if I would need it and I would be packing in the right forest. I don't usually carry a stove for trips under 3 days (except when testing an alky or plan on fishing).
But to some people camp fires are what it's all about, even if I can't understand them (like starting a fire in the morning for cofee). I just wish they'd all follow the rules. On Labor Day weekend going up towards Italy Pass, I saw 3 campfires in a no fire zone.

This has nothing to do with camp fires but I just want to share this – when I camped at Blue Lake in October 2009, I stumbled upon a weird young couple (unaware of us and fortunately not backpackers) running around naked in the snow around some rather large bushes they lit up, screaming and discharging a handgun. Retards…

[Justin Baker]

I have done cold too, and it was fine. Sometimes after a long day of hiking my I can stomach some snacks more than a hot meal, especially after a hot day of hiking.
One thing with campfires is you can cook certain foods that you can't with a stove. You can roast a fish over the fire without having to carry a skillet or any meat (if you either packed it it or hunted while out there) and you can bake more easily by piling around coals for a more even burn. You could also pit bake if you want to get fancy.

[Author]

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