Why are you not a Member of BPL?

[John Nausieda]

+1 on everything you've said Mary D, especially the search functions and lack of stickies or beginner's articles. It is a drag to see the same questions and responses about every 3 weeks. And what incentive is there to become a Mlife if you are a M already? If BPL gave me a break for having been here 2 years I would consider it , but otherwise it gets more tempting not to renew because you know enough already and can just infer the paid content from the responses.

[Kattt]

A better search function would be good….but I like the simple format here; no bolding, jumping people, long quotes, colors…I hope it will stay this way.
As for more moderation? Nooooooooooooooooooo. We are doing just fine like this. The only problems I see with Chaff is that some don't want to scroll down through all that when looking at recent posts, and that is legitimate. Keeping discussions friendlier by moderating them just irks me. We have had unpleasant exchanges but people got out what they wanted to say and then , in most cases, we move on and I would like to keep it that way. Actually, as a paying member I DEMAND IT!!! ; )

[BlackHatGuy]

"And what incentive is there to become a Mlife if you are a M already?"

Some MLife members are trying to add value to MLife membership on their own. There is a gear lending closet – only for MLife members, run by MLife members – with such things as a Backcountry Boiler, a cuben MLD Cricket, a Tenkara Iwana 12' flyrod, various Caldera Ti-Tris, an Exped Downmat 7 Short, an SMD Gatewood Cape, and an MLD Superlight bivy. And we're trying to think of other ways to add value to MLife, FWIW.

[John Nausieda]

Well Doug that IS something concrete. Don't get me wrong -I just don't understand why "time served " doesn't translate to a discount on Mlife .

[Aaron Benson]

""Which begs the question, what would you do if you had to pay for forum access?""

With the numerous ["free"] forums and blogs out there–as suggested several times above–my guess would be that many would simply spend their time on other forums; most of us frequent quite a variety of forums and blogs, already, I assume.

Here are a few of my thoughts about this place that I've truly come to enjoy, FWIW:

I paid for an annual membership because I wanted access to a 'few' of the M* articles and, because I was wet behind the ears at the time, wanted to positively contribute and say "Thanks" to BPL. I don't regret that, but do agree with a lot of what has been said above. Ironically, most of the articles that I reread are accessible to everyone. Had the forums not been so informative at the time, I would not have thought the articles alone worth the money (money is tight, as I'm a Grad student).

-I almost upped for a LifeM when I [mis]read that Lifers got free shipping from the Gear Shop, as I thought that generous perk for dropping the $100 would help offset the high prices…but I hesitated and thought about it for a while longer when I realized that that was only for New/Preorders. Shortly after, it was announced the shop was closing anyway.

-I wasn't around when the Podcast(s) production stopped, and don't know why they did, but quite a few of them were informative and enjoyable. (Why, BTW?)

-I'm a little more learned now and–again considering what has been said above–I don't honestly know if I would have made the same decision, today. The articles are good, but the forums totally make this place – at the moment, the "Forums = BPL." Lately, as suggested–because it's become a little stagnate in here, I think–Chaff and Gear Swap stick out like sore thumbs. Those who enjoy this place visit often out of loyalty, but because it's a bit slow, Chaff becomes busier, as it's become a kind a compensation of use/interaction/involvement, if you will…but that is frustrating for many because that is not worth the price of a paid membership (IMO).

-I realize no one is saying that BPL is going to start charging for forum access, but since the question was brought up: I will gladly renew my membership if BPL comes through in other areas (informative articles, thorough trip reports, podcasts, etc, as suggested above). I certainly won't renew for forum access alone. I don't know how may others would either and I wonder if there would be enough relocation to bump-up a few of the other, less-busy forums that are geared toward light-weight backpacking.

I "heart" BPL, so please be careful – your Customers are talking. ;)

EDIT: very well said, Mary D! I should just say "+1."

Doug – I had no idea there was a MLifer closet; that's pretty cool, actually. I wonder how many more didn't know.

[Mary D]

I personally think that the Life Membership concept is going to do BPL in about 5 years down the road. With Life Membership, the big chunk of cash comes in up front, and is equivalent to about 5 years' annual membership. Once the 5-year mark has passed, Life Members will be getting all services for free and the cash flow will not be coming in.

This is not to insult any Life Members; you are all great people who were intelligent enough to take advantage of a bargain, protecting yourselves from future inflation! I just want to point out that this concept may turn out to be a poor business decision in the long run. In case you haven't already figured it out, I am an accountant (retired)!

As for me, being somewhat "stricken in years" as they say, I may very well be gone from this earth before 5 years are up. (I hope it will happen out there on the trail.) I therefore don't see much point in paying that far ahead for anything!

[Tony Wong]

Regarding the issue that has been put forth on making the forums only for paying members.

I think that focusing on this idea really is distracting from the original point of this thread.

The forums, by themselves is not a good and compelling business model for sustaining a long term business.

What is important is to find out what changes in the website and content offerings would sway someone to find enough value in the website/subscription.

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to add their comments.

This is all about trying to make this a better website for all of us.

-Tony

[USA Duane Hall]

I thought the yearly subscription was more? Like $10 month. Still, so many other bp forums I belong to and contribute to which cost nothing. Something to consider.

Duane

[CW]

What I was getting at about the forums is that they are never truly free. Someone has to pay for the website, hosting, and all of those wonderful associated fees. Generally that's done via advertising, which BPL doesn't have. The site is member supported and there is a ton of content that doesn't exist anywhere else. Without the members, we'd either have to endure intensive advertising, which I personally despise, or lose the content forever.

[Jacob D]

Tony, My general fear of those who wear quilts prevents me from committing.

All kidding aside, I'm happy to pay $20 / yr. to help support the site. The lack of banner ads, bot-generated posts, and all of the hoopla that comes along with sponsorship is a welcome departure from other forums for me.

As a paying member I would like to say that it would be nice if the forum itself was given a complete overhaul with some modern back-end such as vBulletin, Powerboard, or even phpBB.

[Mary D]

I agree with Tony–

"The forums, by themselves is not a good and compelling business model for sustaining a long term business.

"What is important is to find out what changes in the website and content offerings would sway someone to find enough value in the website/subscription."

Duane also has a good point–the relatively low price of membership ($25 annually the first year, $20 for renewals) is not publicized on this site–you have to work down a step or two to find it! Most people see "become a member" on the home page and are turned off right there! Why not state on the home page: "Become a BPL member: Only $24.99 the first year; $19.99 per year thereafter."

Duane, those other forums aren't free at all; they take in advertising and rely heavily on such things as donations, sponsorship, calendar sales, etc.

If BPL goes, this forum will go, too. Only you can decide if it's worth saving. Never mind the opinions I've expressed; these are the hard economic facts.

[spelt with a t]

I'm not interested in so many reviews, or market reports. Figuring out my (nonconsumable) gear, while exciting at times, is ultimately a chore. I wouldn't pay to read reviews–no matter how excellent–of things I have no intention of buying. I'm not interested in the highly technical stuff, either. Is it interesting for its own sake, yes. Is it interesting when I'm just looking to answer a question, no.

What I would pay for is esoterica: why backpacking, why UL, why SUL? Dave C's blog is a good example. Some of Ryan Jordan's posts as well. I would think the Philosophy and Technique forum would be for this, but most often I see posts about which way of doing something is more authentically UL. I've found good musings by following the Trip Reports section and combing through the blogrolls of everyone who posts. If that sort of content were here, I think I'd pay for it.

[Brian UL]

I was a member back when BPL was a physical magazine. The 3 main reasons I don't bother joining again:

1- articles are too few and far between, Reviews are not only too few but they review gear thats been out for a while and reviewed in detail already on forums like this. I would be more interested to see reviews of gear thats just, or not yet on the market. Also I don't need another review of a ruck sack with mesh pockets and other stuff thats been done- I want to see NEW stuff and new ideas that make me rethink the way I do things.

2. There is only so much to say and learn about carrying a light pack. Its not rocket science for most occasions.

3. The forums are the best part of the site- there would be little reason to come here without them.

[EndoftheTrail]

I used to buy annual memberships, then converted to Life membership.

Actually, I agree with Brian's point that backpacking is not a rocket science. While every article and gear review used to be wonderful and exciting to me when I was a newbie hiker 7 years ago… the subject matter, technology, techniques, etc. just don't change that much from month to month or even year to year. So no fault of BPL's, but the reading does become repetitive and increasingly boring…

So why did I pay for the Life membership? Because I enjoy the forums. If we want BPL to continue, then we all have to do our part to support it. And since I don't want to freeload, then I may as well pay the Life option and be done with it. To those who benefit from BPL articles and/or participating in the forums or simply lurking… I encourage y'all to show support as well.

[Mat Tallman]

My take:

As others have stated, I only use the forums here.

I've been a member on a LOT of forums over the last ten years, and have never once seen one where paying to be a part of the discourse was commonplace, or even really a possibility. Some have had the option to donate, but never any sort of "membership" aspect. All of these forums were successful communities packed with information which was free to all. The general consensus was that you pay your due by sharing your own personal wealth of knowledge, not dollars. Forums were funded primarily through advertising (isn't everything anymore :( ). I, being the type who is irritated by pervasive marketing, simply block ads within my browser (and other firewalling steps) and am none the wiser to their presence. The domain name is paid for, forum software stays updated, users benefit from the exchange of information, everyone's happy.

In light of the time I've spent on other forums, which actually have useful features like a search, the ability to easily quote/reply to other users, doesn't require someone to insert a goofy subject line to reply, allows links, has a functional private message system, etc. the list goes on. The software this forum runs on is really bad in my opinion, and until some time/money is devoted to bringing the forum software up to a reasonable level, there stands a snowball's chance in hades on a hot day that I would spend any money to become a member.

It has also been my perception that having "members" and "life members" seems to tend towards an occasional attitude of elitism or entitlement, and sometimes some insinuations that non-members are somehow "freeloaders" here. This is, from what I've seen, not especially widespread, but it's certainly not been a 1-time thing. Perhaps I'm the only non-member who gets this vibe sometimes…

As to the question of what would happen if a "forum membership fee" were instituted, I'd surmise that someone(s) would simply start their own forum, probably using modern forum software, paying for it with ads from gear companies that I would block, and that a fair portion of non-members would jump to such a forum. I've seen situations on other forums take MUCH less than demanding payment for forum access to drive scores of members away to newly started forums which take off and thrive on their own. This is usually an overall detriment to the "community" though as it serves to decentralize much of the information and discussion. This would essentially be segregating groups whose only uncommon trait is a willingness or ability (or lack thereof) to pay for a subscription. You'd probably save the domain a fair bit of bandwidth though, if money is the subject of the discussion.

My take on it, YMMV.

[Steve Robinson]

Was a member, but let it slack. Felt that the gear shop compromised the content. There were certain items that weren't included in reviews because they were in the shop.

Now that it is being closed, I am more likely to sign up again.

[Kimberly Wersal]

I'm in agreement with Ed Z and Ben– it's largely a matter of wanting to pay my share in support of a forum that I enjoy frequenting– not whether I could manage to scrounge up the same information without HAVING to pay for it. Since it is not particularly a financial hardship to contribute, I would feel like a freeloader NOT to. Plus, I would like to see BPL continue to exist a few years down the line!

[Yuri R]

Because PM (private message) system here is a PAIN !

Now on a more serious note:

For me to join BPL I need to have a benefit for doing so. Accessing reviews or articles behind the "pay wall" is not that attractive. I can always read reviews at Amazon.com, REI.com and others. There are plenty of blogs and sites with articles on every topic imaginable and all of them are only a single search entry away.

The shop…I've never even looked what's in the BPL shop. I assume it's all the lightweight gear, but I also assume that prices are not lower than on Amazon, REI outlet, and other discount stores.

What would it take for me to join BPL? Perhaps if BPL was organizing outings, guided trips, lessons of some sort then I would see more value in the membership. But they would have to be in my area where i can actually join them and not across the state/states.

The information and community (people on the forum) are great and a lot of help, but if it wasn't BPL providing this space and forum facility – it would be another forum on another site.

Is it selfish to expect something I actually want in return for money that it takes to join? I don't think so…Especially if you consider the fact that forum and activity on the site are largely kept up by the non-paying members. So trying to limit access to forum through pay-wall would cut out some of the very active and helpful people.

I was actually planning to setup my own backpacking/camping forum until I found BPL and another well established site with many members…

Ah – as someone mentioned on the first page of this thread – i would probably pay for subscriptions to articles of TRIP reports that have many pictures, are well written, have detailed information about the trip, locations, navigation tips and most importantly – INSPIRE me to visit that place.

Trip reports + pictures = crack for outdoor junkies.

[Gerry Volpe]

I was a member for a year and thought it was a valuable investment and BPL is actually the only website if have ever supported. I'm not now a member partially because I let mine lapse and now cannot take advantage of the member discount on resubscribtion. I am sure that I will join again to read some of the articles I have been missing, while I won't be a continuous member I will certainly contribute to the revenue stream in some way. I also think that as I have spent more time on the forums I find less and less that is new and exciting which is natural obviously. I still think this is a top notch community of people and an excellent resource more than deserving of financial support.

[Erik Basil]

I response to the OP's question: I am not a paying member because I am a casual reader of the forums for information and insight, but frequent several similar sites per day, all of which are as "free as radio" –meaning supported by endemic and non-endemic advertisers.

I've seen some commentary regarding the software used here, and I don't know much about the platform being used here, but I do know a fair bit about phBB and vBulletin. Most of the "desires" voiced here regarding the onboard search engine, PM system and etc… would be resolved with either of those two BBS systems and vBulletin now provides a CMS that would enable the entire site to run on one platform if desired. These would also allow for insertion of Google Adsense ads, and to make them visible only to those not logged-in if desired, and also some endemic ad links for companies that support the site. Notably, vBulletin would also allow for management of the Meta Data on the content articles and a robust Search Engine Optimization that would increase traffic to the site.

The costs involved with migration to new software can be significant, in terms of cash and emotion, depending what's currently being run and managed, but vBulletin will do most of it for a low fee. The traffic this site generates won't make Adsense income enough to pay for even the new software, but the nature of forum software upgrades and SEO is that they pay off over time with ever-growing traffic and ad-views.

Those who ad-block do frustrate the system by denying the host some income, but you can set up endemic ads into the template, that everyone will see… and then know which companies support the site. One can also easily create membership levels for access, with effects such as limitation of classified/sale postings to paying members, for example.

Okay that all said, my point is that if BPL wants to invest in new software, there would be a net improvement in happiness and ad-income, following a period of pain and anguish during the migration. The upgrade would also enable the Admins to make more choices and to have more options regarding methods to monetize the site and yet preserve its feel and utility for the Silent Majority: those who enjoy the free intarwebz.

[Brian Dickens]

How about I place the question back to you.

I will post this for 2 reasons. 1) It is my opinion 2) stirring the pot.

Can you explain to me, what value I get for $20 a year?

Access to Members-only content at BackpackingLight.com
— I am fine with existing forums and cannot justify any amount for communication with other backpackers.

Member discounts on goods and services offered by Backpacking Light
— Goods are dwindling and not available. No interest in services.

Subscription to the Members-only email newsletter
— I do not need any propoganda.

Advance notice of new product availability
— Seems like there are better products out there than BPL offers and companies in the business of UL Gear have websites.

Access to Members-only forum for the discussion of issues unique to Backpacking Light membership
— Never interested in stuff like this. That is for the elitist.

Access to an "ask-the-expert" forum moderated by Backpacking Light staff and athletes (in development) .
— I view other backpackers as sufficiently expert.

Cost savings over time with protection from subscription price increases
— Sounds like BPL is trying to justify the fee.

Invitation to BackpackingLight.com's periodic "friends and employees" sales
— I seiously doubt that the savings with this would be any better than any other sale on the internet UL gear. Plus you have to want the BPL gear, which seems OK, but all the stuff I like from BPL is not available.

Free ground domestic shipping for LIFE for all pre-purchases of new Backpacking Light branded products
— Is this really a value? I have yet to find a BPL product that I like AND is available.

Participation in Backpacking Light's strategic planning process
— LOL. I can voice my opinion right here.

[Tony Wong]

Brain,

Thanks for taking the time to respond back to my original question to provide your thoughts and to provide insight on why people chose not to become paying members of BPL.

To sum things up, the forum by itself offers you the most value and the reason to visit the BPL sight, which is free.

The products and services are of little value because there are other vendors of products that can fill your needs and the discounts to members is not sufficient enough to warrant spending money on a membership.(I would say that if the only reason to buy a membership is to receive a discount on products, then BPL has failed as a website/business).

The articles available to paying members does not appeal to you perhaps there is the perception that maybe that information can be found elsewhere on the internet for free or provided to you by others via the BPL forum.

Bottom line is that BPL has failed to give you a reason to reason to join.

1. Lack of unique information that appeals to you

2. Failure to provide the perception of value in the event the articles might be of value to you

As a side note: Signing up for a membership as a means of "charity" to support BPL is also not a viable long term business plan.

[Andy Schill]

I originally lurked for a while and learned so much that I decided to join. I generally just use the forum and read the articles. I guess I could do everything without being a paying member, but I've taken a lot away from this forum. I just re-upped, however, I'm not sure if I will do it again.

I think BPL could REALLY use a forum software update that includes a better tagging/watching function for threads, a quote function, and a much better PM function. There's also small nit-picks that would be nice to change (not having to enter a subject when responding, being able to see the thread as you are posting) It seems like this forum software is ages behind others; however, this forum has some of the best information out there.

[Ryan Smith]

Like many others, I lurked for quite a while visiting the forums and then bought a membership because I enjoyed the forums that BPL has. It also gave me access to the articles which were OK, but nothing I didn't already learn from the forums. Will I renew again? Most likely no.

The common theme amongst a lot of the people here is that they enjoy each other, but not BPL itself, which is a bad thing for a site w/ a membership fee. This isn't the mid-90's, people don't pay for site access now days. I wonder if a better model would be to have the cottage mfg'ers pay a monthly/yearly fee to advertise here in a tasteful fashion instead. They already advertise here now to an extent, why should they have access to the site population for free? As part of the deal, no other mfg'ers can advertise here unless they too become members. They rarely participate in the forums except for Lawson and Ron B., maybe that would give them more of an incentive to add. If you think about it they have the most knowledge/experience for the most part. Nothing against the cottage guys, I'm just brainstorming.

Ryan

[Brian Dickens]

@Tony

>>>As a side note: Signing up for a membership as a means of "charity" to
>>>support BPL is also not a viable long term business plan.

I have another site that I have frequented and was also a major contributor to for a while. It is a .org. Non-profit. The only reason it exists is for the community to have a forum 100% free of ads. IMO, it is much more active community than BPL and also has a fair chunk of tech weanies contributing time, equipment and knowledge.

If you are trying to make profit on this site, I agree.

One idea for you ask for 5-10% donation on anything sold on gear swap (likely a bit hard on this site since many swap items are not really that large of a price).

Can you tell us how many paid members you have and how many unpaid members you have… or percentage?

[Author]

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