Why is a stove part of an “ultralight” system <3 days?

[E S]

Trail runner's perspective here, so please don't take this as an insult, but unless you're out for 3+ days, why does "ultralight" include a stove, any stove? I can easily survive on raw veg & water for 3 days, and I'm running dawn to dusk. If we can't drop our coffee/tea for a few days "ultralight" seems to me just "ultra-indulgence".

[Stephen B Elder Jr]

"I can easily survive on raw veg & water for 3 days"

SURVIVE, perhaps, but you're way short of maintaining a good condition…

[Michael Davis]

I'm not sure about this but, the food that you take in "ready to eat" form probably weighs significantly more per calorie than dehydrated or freeze-dried foods. Perhaps, a lightweight wood stove system with dry foods wouldn't really be heavier. Not sure about this though, but I am pretty sure a cooked meal would taste better, especially when it's cold outside.

[Dave Jenkins]

Survive and enjoy are two different things. You can survive without a shelter or sleeping bag, heck or even shoes.

A beer can stove and 2-3 oz of alcohol to have a hot meal is worth it to me, and improves my enjoyment of the trip.

Last I checked, light or ultralight was to improve enjoyment of the trip, not prove how light you can get by leaving everything at home.

Just my opinion.

[E S]

"SURVIVE, perhaps, but you're way short of maintaining a good condition…"

Please describe how one's condition deteriorates on three days of raw veg & water and how heated food prevents this.

[E S]

"Last I checked, light or ultralight was to improve enjoyment of the trip, not prove how light you can get by leaving everything at home."

Yeah, guess that's the difference if you're running. Light is not about proving anything, just about running efficiently on trail (=enjoyment) and a stove is hard for me to factor into this equation for such a short jaunt.

[Charles Grier]

You are certainly entitled to do your thing your way. But please, don't waste too much time being critical ("ultra-indulgence") of those who don't want to follow suite. For me, the idea of spending three days running on a diet of raw vegetables and water sounds ghastly; I would sooner stay home. I am not, by the way, criticizing your way of having fun. Rather, I am critical of your implication that taking a stove along is some sort of character flaw.

[E S]

Noted Rincon – critical analysis not allowed here, and will be taken as an attack on people's character.

I can see that most people here think a stove is necessary even for <3 days, and they're appearing more and more in our magazines, etc, so I simply thought someone might have some insight into why I should even consider a stove beyond indulging in coffee, comfort, etc. Not hearing any so far other than comfort. I leave it to you to decide what is a flaw in your character.

[Javan Dempsey]

Yeah, guess that's the difference if you're running. Light is not about proving anything, just about running efficiently on trail (=enjoyment) and a stove is hard for me to factor into this equation for such a short jaunt.

You really believe that relying on raw vegetables and water is efficient running?

I'm a vegetarian and pretty obsessed with raw food in general, but even I can't trick myself into believing this idea.

I can't see any way you're going to get the caloric intake you need for 3 days of running off just raw veggies, and if you could, the weight would be exorbitant.

You can have an alcohol stove, fuel and a pot for 3 days of cooking at sub-1lb. The amount of weight you'll save by having dehydrated and dry food will more than make up for the weight of the equipment.

You could certainly argue that no-cook food might be more efficient, and it can be, but it can also be difficult, considering the weight of most of the semi-hydrated food compared to totally dehydrated ingredients. Things like Cliff bars (just a random example) are very weighty.

If you're out running for 3 days with a couple lbs of raw vegetables or fruit and water, I can pretty much guarantee you that you're running on a serious deficit, and probably doing your body much more damage than good. Although, that wouldn't surprise me at all, since I definitely see a prevailing trend in some parts of the running community that seems to be crossing the line beyond optimal health toward fanaticism.

Anyway, just my 2c.

[todd]

Backpacking, for me, is an "ultra-indulgence". One of my favorites, in fact.

What does that say about me?

[Konrad .]

Eliade, Outta curiosity, can we get a list of what raw vegs (and quantity) you bring on a 3 day run? I'm going with Javan on this one. I don't consume much on a day to day basis, but even if I was just sitting on my couch all day, I still require at least 1500 calories just to make it through the day…short of that, I feel like my stomach is imploding. I can only imagine how much 1500 calories of raw vegetables weigh. It blows my mind that you have the energy to run (and heal) without the dense calories, carbs, sugars, and protein found in traditional backpacking meals. Honestly, i'm just curious. Is this really common practice amongst multiday trail runners or are you an anomaly. I can imagine doing raw veg diet for maybe 1 night, but all I would think about is food the entire trip, which in turn, kills my enjoyment and efficiency.

And as others have emphasized….our stove setups often weigh 3-5oz (yeah not many of us are buying those jetboils that magazines hawk to the masses). So coupling that with lightweight dehydrated or freeze dried food…it's not really that much. Again, I can't compare the weight to your diet because I don't have any idea about the quantity of raw veggies you bring out…but I wouldn't be surprised if lb for lb a stove setup + food is lighter and more energy rich. For example, I have a 3 ounce stove setup +1 oz of fuel per day, and my overall food weight (including breakfast, lunch snacks, and dinner) is 1.25 lbs per day. So for 24ounces a day I get ~2500 calories per trail day, which includes an abundant amount of carbs and a decent amount of protein.

It seems that you're very focused on shaving weight in order to run more efficiently, but I have to ask…wouldn't making sure that you're consuming enough calories, carbs, and protein so that you can perform optimally have a large bearing on just how efficient you are? Everyone works differently, but I always notice a dramatic difference in my performance either in the gym or on the trail depending on what I've consumed throughout the day.

Also, I don't think its as cut and dry as you make it out to be. It's not like all of us horde lbs of coffee into the backcountry, and for that reason alone we require stove setups. If so were the case, I would agree that that is "ultra indulgence." But the majority of us bring stoves because it keeps the weight of our food down (as opposed to a no-cook diet). If I were able to get the same amount of nutrition and energy from raw vegs as I would from traditional backpacker food, AND at the same weight…then yeah, I would leave the stove behind. But until that's a reality, I have to keep my stove and dry foods as their benefit to me is essential to my efficiency and enjoyment.

[Jason Elsworth]

I can easily survive on raw veg & water for 3 days

If I tried this I wouldn't last a day without needing to be rescued. Ray Jardine was very into the whole Raw Food thing for a time, don't know if he still is.

I do agree that it is good practice to keep examining the status quo.

This looks very interesting http://www.rawhike.com/index.shtml

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

For a short trip I might not bring a stove and I'll eat something like cereal for breakfast, bars for lunch and hummus and crackers for dinner. But very often I go backpacking in cold weather, so I really appreciate a hot meal at the end of the day right before I go to bed.

[E S]

My daily diet is irrelevant to the question of needing a stove, but it's 90% raw sprouts & veg, seeds, sea vegetables and seaweeds. More amino acids (protein) and nutrition in raw sprouts (10-30x) than cooked, but that's another issue. I haven't weighed my food as I'm not a weight fanatic, I simply take only what I need. It's less than 3/4 pound for sure +h20. Dried seaweeds and sea veg. weigh almost nothing. I imagine the heaviest are un-soaked sunflower seeds, which are a minor part of my ziploc.

We're talking about 3 days folks, and the notion that one will lapse into severe nutritional deficiency in this short time without cooked food is completely absurd. One can eat a tube of peanut butter and run all day, no stove required. And there are plenty of non-cooked options for dehydrated foods that satisfy many diets. Don't forum members jerk beef, smoke fish, dehydrate fruit, carry gorp, etc? Not to mention all the powders, gels, and goos or even simple candy bars avg. 400+ calories. None require a stove.

"Ultra-indulgence" wasn't meant as an insult, but perhaps there are a few guilty consciences here. Running can be its own indulgence, with endorphins, etc. just not something I'm after or believe anyone truly considers beneficial to themselves.

Question withdrawn.

[spelt with a t]

I do not serve the UL philosophy; it serves me. I'm not having an existential crisis over whether to bring a stove and what the choice says about the purity of my UL practices.

Edit: didn't see you withdrew the question. No need for that! I think you'll get more responses about your trail diet than your stove question, but either way stick around. :)

[Jeffs Eleven]

Don't withdraw your question. Keep it going, you will find many folks willing to discuss most anything. Almost all the time it is respectful and is about actual fact. (see Greg Mihalik's avatar)

[Jason Elsworth]

Please don't withdraw your question. I would love to see a suggested Raw food menu for a three day hike. How long can raw spouts be safely kept out of the fridge, or can you grow them as you go along.

[Franco Darioli]

Eliade
The reason is very simple.
To you getting from A to B the fastest time is possibly your goal.
To most here the idea is to go on the trail and have a good time.
Many don't consider eating cold food only, "having a good time".
In fact some would not bother to hike at all unless there was some good food to be had at the end of the day.
Weird, isn't it ?
Franco

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Cause I don't much care for eating cold food day in and out. Example: I eat raw for SOME meals both at home and on trail but gee, I happen to prefer hot tea with breakfast and a hot dinner.

HYOH and YMMV apply here.

Edit to add:
There is no "right" way to do anything. It comes down to what a person likes. See above line for why. PS: I carry a stove even on dayhikes. Why? Because I LIKE to. I enjoy cooking. I love nothing more than a scenic view, a sit pad and time to cook. That is half of why I hike.

If you want to run ultra and eat sprouts, hey knock yourself out. I have no bone to pick, so don't sneer at me when I sit and make lunch and be mellow for an hour somewhere pretty!

[rOg w]

deleted

[Dave Jenkins]

I agree that a Raw food discussion has it place. I would be interested to see examples that are of a manageable weight vs calorie and nutrient count.

I think it was just that the question was presented in a manner may or may not have come across the way you intended. Not sure, since you mentioned guilty consciouses of those who disagree with you?

If you or anyone else is comfortable and enjoy that sort of diet for a few days, knock yourself out.

Either way, if it is more than a day hike, I am packing a stove.

[Dave Jenkins]

oops wrong thread

[carl becker]

Absolutely ultra-indulgence. I very much enjoy my coffee, tea, hot oatmeal and hot dinner. I hike to see the country, take pictures at the magic times and be comfortable. I don't run past beauty. I think you have a very different goal in mind and know what works for you.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Although I've never gone stove-less yet, I'm pretty open to the idea on some trips. There are lots of tasty, no cook, calorie dense foods out there that I could happily survive on for a few days. I couldn't do raw veggies though. Stuff that comes to mind is:

– Pepperoni (the fairly dry, no refrigerate stuff that is about 125 cal/oz)
– Chocolate
– cheeses
– Energy bars (powerbar triple chocolate please!)
– Cereal with powdered milk (breakfast)

Perhapse equally appealing to me than the weight saved, is the simplicity gained. Cooking meals can be quite time consuming which is fine for some trips, but non-ideal on others. Some days I like to just keep walking and not fuss with setting up a stove and waiting for it to boil. With my wife I'll always carry a stove, but for shorter solo trips or fast trips with the boys I'd consider leaving it at home.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

There are lots of no-cook foods that are delicious. My favorites are sandwiches. Real bread with real peanut butter and jelly is easy and simple. A crusty baguette with some olive oil and fancy cheese packs well. Something really fancy like goat cheese and figs, or fancy italian meats and peppers is wonderful. Many uncooked foods like these aren't going to last as long as dried stuff though, so fancy sandwiches are mostly for the first night and then meals get a bit more basic, dried, rehydrated as time goes on.

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