POE’s warranty is a P.O.S.

[k sebler]

I returned (on my dime) a 'lifetime warranted' $65 POE insulated, rectangular, 72×20, x-lite thermo pad to POE because the insulation was delaminating/clumping badly within the pad.
I took their word for it that they would send me a 'like replacement' (which is what I was told on the phone). well…..POE shipped as a replacement a $22.00 "Pack M" pad. It is mummy pad and very, let's say, inexpensively (rather than cheaply) made; no where near what I had returned. Upon calling in to ask what happened to my 'like replacement' and saying that since they do not seem to make an INSULATED rectangular (air mattress type) pad any more, I said that I could live with the Adventurer AC, even though I prefer a rectangular mattress. (This is at least a quasi-rectangular pad – kind of a cross between a mummy & a rectangular)
I was told that unless I paid an 'upcharge' for a better pad (which would merely be equal to the one I sent in) that that was all I would be getting.
So… buyer beware when dealing with Pacific Outdoor Equipment. They may have saved themselves ten or twenty dollars, but they have likely lost a customer.
(Prior to this I have purchased 4 x-lite -thermo's as well as 2 of the campmor-labeled x-lite thermo's. All were purchased as gifts for friends/family) I also influenced (TO P.O.E.) quite a few additional purchases for them, as I oversee a hiking club in Az.)

[Konrad .]

Thanks for sharing. That's pretty absurd. Seems like insulation delamination is a common problem with their pads. Worries me a bit, considering that I just bought a peak AC (along with many other members of this board.) See the ether elite review right here on BPL for the same exact problem you encountered. You would think they would have replaced your pad with a peak ac given that it's in the same price range. Honestly, let this thread build up steam. Manufacturers need to know that they should stand behind their expressed warranties. Sooner or later, they will catch drift of this thread, either on their own, or by someone linking them to it. I wouldn't be surprised if they owned up to their mishap and sent you a viable replacement, to which you are entitled to.

Punctures and wear and tear are 1 thing, but a manufacturing defect is another. As consumers, we shouldn't have to absorb the costs of their shoddy construction.

Relevant portion taken from the BPL review, with photo reflecting the defect:

"Three samples were provided by POE for testing: two went to Roger Caffin and his wife Sue, and the third went to Will Rietveld. Preliminary testing of the first mat received by Roger showed up a problem: when the mat was deflated, folded lengthwise as recommended, and then rolled up, some of the insulation started to come loose inside the mat. It was being sheared by the rolling action."

[Andy F]

I'd make another call, asking to speak with someone higher up.

If that doesn't work, I would send it back using cheapest shipping possible along with a letter stating that their replacement is unacceptable, does not meet the terms of their warranty, and that you want a pad which is a "like replacement." Be sure to get signed delivery confirmation. (This is assuming you don't mind being without a pad completely.)

Edit: Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll be sure to take any POE pads off my list when considering future purchases.

[Robert Cowman]

email them this thread, and send the pad back saying, thanks but no thanks, I've decide go to a company that has customer service and higher quality products.

I bet you get an email in a few days, as to not lose even more customers, and product image.

[Chad “Stick” Poindexter]

Wow, sorry to hear that. Hope that it works out for you in the end.

I know that there is a lot of buzz about POE pads, but honestly, this is the first bad thing I have heard about them. But it seems from some of the other post in this thread, this is not uncommon…makes me glad I stuck with my NeoAir (although I love the Neo and still do not plan on replacing it).

[Mark Ries]

Sorry to hear about that I just sent in a Exped synmat and was treated very well. I just sent in a MontBell UL spiral 3 and didnt like the repair at all I will post a pic of repair and the story behind it in a few days.

[Roger Caffin]

Two of the improvements the Internet has brought us:
Public warning to other potentisal customers about defective products
Public feedback about dissatisfaction and defects to the companies concerned.

Try hassling some more.

Cheers

[Patrick S]

Its pretty lame on their part to not fulfill what they said upfront. Things like this really steer me clear of certain brands. So many companies, large and small, in the hiking world have such amazing customer service its tough to compete when you can't even make good on what you're offering the people that financially support you.

[Michael Ray]

I have 2 of the Campmor-labeled X-lite Thermos as well.

Konrad, what review did you get that quote from? Google search of BPL only found this thread. I never knew you shouldn't roll them.

I also have a NeoAir and am happy to report Thermarest does stand by their warranty. Sorry to hear of your troubles.

[Konrad .]

Hey Michael,

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/poe_ether_elite_6_air_mat_review.html

It's supposedly an early issue that was limited to their prototypes, but who knows. I can't imagine any other practical way to store these pads in our packs, other than to roll them.

[Jeffs Eleven]

FWIW I store my pad, folded flat like a towel, against my back panel, where the hydration sleeve is.

Its a Neo- so it might as well not even be there (super thin)… I guess I did that with my old BAIACs back when they were the stuff. (Dude, that was totally like 5 years ago, bro! Gnar!) #~P

+1 to POE=POS for the old $65=$25 'business deal' Maybe in the fine print its that your dollars are converted to pesos after purchase.

[Stephan Doyle]

My list of potential lifetime sleeping pad manufacturers just lost a name. I'll stick with Thermarest, Exped, or Kookabay thank you.

[Matt Orr]

Thanks for sharing. I too am searching for a sleeping pad and will strike this company off my list of possibilities.

[Jeff M.]

I'll just echo that it may be worthwhile giving them a call and working your call up the food chain. Mention the thread as someone already suggested. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[k sebler]

Thanks Jeff.
My feeling is that POE has now had TWO chances to get this right (actually three if you count originally making the pad correctly in the first place).
I have read the Golite warranty(?) thread as well. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=49578

My feeling is that for every one of us who takes the time/effort to contact the manufacturer ad nauseam, that there are at least 50 who do not. So when the manufacturer finally 'makes good' on their warranty (after being, in Golite's case, contacted 20+ times plus having their name plowed under on various internet forums), they are merely trying to buy back the black mark by making one person (the squeaky wheel) go away. In the mean time there are 50 others out there who get 'stiffed'. So for a company who is looking just at the cost of warranty… not honoring one's warranty pays a 50-to-1 benefit.
I understand that all this this sounds harsh, but I believe that integrity is how you act when NO ONE is watching. Both POE & Golite are too big and experienced for either of these cases to be an anomaly.

[Greg Garrigues]

Hello K Sedler. Interesting way you have chosen to address the issue you have with your pad. First you post a complaint and then you send blind links to me after the fact?

From: kurt.sedler [mailto:kurt@]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:40 PM
To: Greg@
Subject: RE: warranty issue

Greg,
Correction on the thread address. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=50052

kurt

From: kurt.sedler [mailto:kurt@]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 12:12 PM
To: 'Greg@
Subject: warranty issue

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=49578

I have looked deep into the Pacific Outdoor warranty file and cannot find any return with your name. When did you return your mat and under what name – does it start with S and end in Y? If you do start with S and end in Y, then my records show that we did replace your mat with an equivalent and that after recieving it, you didn’t like the replacement, so we are now preparing to send you the alternate that you indicated you would now prefer. From our side of the communication it would suggest that we have responded to your issues and that a blast-o-gram on a forum is ill placed. I am all for freedom of expression and speech, but throwing rocks at the folks that are trying to help you doesn’t seem right. You are entitled to your opinion, and it won’t change our team from working hard and doing the right thing at every opportunity.

Regarding warranty service, we vigilantly honor our warranty with integrity and we would have never sent you a replacement mat substitution unless the item you returned was no longer being produced or would be out of stock for an extended period of time and we wanted to get you a mat quickly so you could get out on the trail. Additionally, we would only send the replacement product to you after first asking you if this was an acceptable solution, and adding to the offer that if you don’t like what you receive, let us know and we will work with you to find another solution that better suits your needs.

Here is our warranty statement if you’d like to refresh. It is straightforward and gets straight to the point: “All Pacific Outdoor Equipment products are warranted against defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the product. Should at any time you find one of these rare defects, we will repair or replace the product at our option. We’d much rather keep our gear out of the landfill and in service. If a product should develop a problem as a result of normal wear and tear, misuse, alterations, or a random act of Murphy, we would be happy to provide an estimate and help you repair your gear at a reasonable cost. All you have to do is get it to us and we’ll take care of the rest. If an issue should arise with one of our products, please contact our warranty department for further assistance and shipping instructions.”

We are backpackers, bikepackers and general outdoor fanatics just like the people that use our gear, and we treat people the same way we expect to be treated ourselves and communicate with an open and honest dialogue. While we do our best to “listen” to the internet chatter, the filter is only so fine, and we unfortunately have not developed telepathy yet, and can’t read peoples’ minds. So if you have an issue with us please take a moment to communicate. We do listen.

You can reach our warranty staff directly at [email protected] or I am always more than happy to address the issue personally. Sincerely – Greg Garrigues [email protected]

[Mark Ries]

Just curious as to how old the pad is? Not that it matters cause when they decide to say lifetime they really should mean it. I own a either thermo6 that has been alright really not that warm though. Im still working at montbell on my repair they did for me. Thanks for posting this as it prompted me to post mine I will send POE a message on your behalf

[Mark Ries]

I just took 5 minutes to send a message to POE to either take care of you or post a message defending themselves on what they did or they will not ever get a purchase from me again and they will get the free P.R. that they deserve Edited cause I didnt know POE had responded already LUCKY IM NOT IN A GUNFIGHT

[k sebler]

(Also sent as a direct email to [email protected])

Well, Greg.. you may have been mis-informed by your warranty department employee – – that can happen – it's understandable.
Your warranty department (support@pacoutdoor) was made aware of this 'issue' (the 2nd time)and my dissatifaction over 2 weeks ago. They were also sent a link to this thread the day it was originally posted. I received no reply from them. [Greg, I would have copied you at that time, but it took some internet sleuthing to ascertain your email address]. Of course, if the 'support' department had, and followed a better system, emailing you would be unnecessary; correct?
So.. in no way is my posting of my 'issues' here on this forum nor my email to you pointing to this link any kind of 'left hook'. An astute, customer service-oriented, company might thank me for alerting them to their shortcoming, as it will merely make them better, and a result, more profitable.

Let's get some basics down and get you up-to-speed.

I sent back an X-Lite Thermo with an obvious manufacturing defect (insulation clumping & delaminating within the pad)
Your mattresses have a lifetime warranty. From your website as of today…"All Pacific Outdoor Equipment product is warranted against defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the product."
An X-Lite Thermo is a 72" x 20" rectangular pad; correct?
It sold for about $65-470 retail; correct?
It is an 'air mattress' type pad (vs. a foam-filled pad); correct?
It is an INSULATED pad; correct?
With (approximately) an R-rating of 4 or better; correct?

If all are correct, let's see what pads you offer presently that fit most/all of these parameters…… http://pacoutdoor.com/sleeping-pads.

The 'Pack-M' (which you sent on 'try 1') was sold as some sort of Steep-and-Cheap and the like bargain pad; correct? I never saw it priced at more than $22 (although it may have been somewhere at some time). I never saw this 'pack M' on my many visits to your site over the years and if you 'google' Pack M, you will see the dearth of info on it for yourself. Also, it is a mummy pad with an unknown R rating. So, that was not much of a 'like exchange'; was it?
Strike 1

You may be able to attempt to make the case that the Classic AC would be viable, as it IS rectangular. (This was your 2nd attempt at a 'like exchange') Oh… but it is a summer pad and has merely a R-rating of 2.(vs. the 4+ of the 'X-Lite Thermo 3 season pad)
So… strike 2.

Unless there is an omission in your website, it appears as if the 'Adventurer AC is the only 'fit' to the 'like exchange'. Yes, the shape is a 'modified rectangle') but otherwise as far as price, type and performance it is the most equivalent pad you currently offer. BUT… of course that is the pad that you wanted to charge extra for, (read this part carefully, please) even when the point was made to the 'support' department that it was/is the most apt pad.
Strike 3

[Mark Hudson]

Think we have heard both sides of the story and you seem to be getting a new pad…not sure further discussion could add any value at this point.

[Lawson Kline]

Its too bad you had to expose this issue on a forum for them to do anything. So not only is their gear made in Asia using cheap labour but they also have no customer support and don't stand behind their products. Tell me again why are their products so expensive? I thought foreign labor and no customer service was a cheap way to do business. Maybe its those profits that are soaking up all the extra costs?? Either way I will never buy another POE product.. Thanks for the heads up.

[Brett Peugh]

I learned about a year ago that before I buy anything to call the customer support line or just try to get ahold of them first and ask them a question about the item that they should know. I have been quite shocked by the non-responses I get from emails and some of the people I have talked to in customer support who did not know anything about a product than what was printed on their web page. If they can not do that for me, how well are they going to assist me in the future with an issue or warranty with their product? It always pays to check first.

[k sebler]

Although Greg (who is listed as the president of POE) 'seemed' to be accommodating and willing to try to resolve this issue in his post, I have, as he asked, emailed him twice since(copying the POE 'support' email as well) trying to get this issue put to bed, but have not heard from him (or anyone else @ POE). I received a 'read receipt' on each email that I sent, so it has been confirmed that he received and read my emails. caveat emptor

[Greg Garrigues]

Kurt:
Sorry for the delay in my response. While every customer is important to us, you are not our only customer and others need my attention as well.

While I feel that we have fully and appropriately addressed you and your warranty, I also share the oppinion of Mark Hudson, “…not sure further discussion could add any value at this point.” That being said, I also feel that I must address some of your points, as you seem determined to try and paint us in a bad light.

The thing that you left out of your account of the dialogue is that when it was determined that your pad was irreparable and in need of replacement, and that we had a close but not exact replacement for you, you were also offered a credit to apply towards anything else we make. That offer still stands and all we need to get from you is a scan of your receipt, and we can make it happen. What I don’t understand is why Sally didn’t ask to speak to a supervisor if she didn’t like the treatment she was receiving. And where does Sally fit into this? We are talking to a third party that has given our staff the responses and impression that we are treating her fairly and with respect at each juncture of the dialogue. She is the one agreeing to our CS person that she is happy, and you are the one raking us over the coals. Well it seems like our staff communicated just fine with Sally. We have combed the support email box, and there is no record of ever receiving an email from you there. If we received one, we would have responded.

At the end of the day, the customer is Sally at this point, and our records show that we are waiting for her to return a mat. When we receive it, we will contact her to reconfirm that we should proceed with the direction that she already gave us.

Regarding Pack M@, it is an alternate sales channel brand for us, and many times has equivalent features, performance and materials to our main line. In the situation of the mat you returned on your warranty claim, it was the same in all aspects except shape. The cost of producing a rectangle and a mummy are identical.

Regarding Mr. Kline’s comments:
Mr. Kline, we had already taken care of Mr. Sebler’s issue when he made his posting and it wasn’t until he made an accusatory posting that we became aware of his/her discontent. We frankly find this interaction strange, as we never actually spoke to Kurt, he had a 3rd party person named Sally contact us, and Sally never voiced any concerns. She had more direct remedies immediately available to her while on the phone and very easily could have asked our customer service person ifs he could speak to their supervisor, which never happened. Regarding profit, we charge a very fair price for what we deliver. Our staff all live in modest homes, drink good but cheep beer, and drive reasonable cars. Now you did catch us with one excess, we do all have bigger than average gear closets and really nice bikes, but I think that just shows where our priorities are. You should note that our prices are less than many of our competitors that make products in Asia. For those situations where our prices are higher, it is directly related to the use of higher quality materials and more complicated assembly techniques that enhance performance. Believe me, I would like to build product in the US, and we are taking steps to do some of that now in a responsible way, but I also like the people that build our products in China very much too, and I am proud to offer them an opportunity to make a good living. The standard of living that our factory staff lives is night and day better than most factories in China. They have stellar workspaces, great food quality, health care, education, the ability to save for their future, and now they save to buy internationally designed goods (e.g. American brands)which does give back to our economy, etc. There are no two bits about it, that they are not our fellow countrymen, but they are a part of our global community, and I am happy whenever and wherever there is another environmentally minded hard working person in the work force. If you ask me about their government, I have a totally different opinion, and I voice that to my legislators regularly. We have no shame in where we build our gear, and will openly address any questions that you have about it. Part of the problems with producing our product in the US, is that the raw material chain left the country too, and I have had no control over that. We can’t get the fabric woven here; we cannot get the chemicals needed to coat the fabric here. Where do you think the materials come from that our American made competitors use? So they ship theraw fabric –including waste– to the US, so they can convert the raw materials here and create waste here that cannot be returned to the industrial materials stream without shipping it back to Asia? How does that make more sense? I have also asked myself, "If I can’t get the parts to build it here, do I just not build it or do I build it someplace else responsibly and create some jobs here doing design, customer service, marketing, distribution, etc.?" There are lots of robust philosophical and practical dialogues that can be had over this topic.

I think Mr. Kline’s opinion brings up some important points for dialogue and I would encourage someone to organize a discussion board on this and see if you could recruit some people that know the issues. Fromt he industry side, I would propose you invite Matt Hyde of REI, Pete Girard of Timberland, Gordon Fraser of Anatom and Steven Barnes of The North Face (formerly Osprey) and if you want to hear my opinions I would be honored to participate as well.

I will wait to hear from Sally, and I thank the forum for their time.

[James holden]

neo air …

[Author]

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