Does this add up, first time uber light. New England late summer – summer..

[patrick walsh]

I run, i an only looking to do overnight trips for the moment. I plan on being in the woods no later that 8am the first day and out by no later than 8 pm the next.

22 liter hydration pack with 100oz bladder.

cubin fiber dry bag pack liner, everything goes in this but tent?

Black diamond lighthouse sans storage bags and ground cloth.

WM Summerlite bag.

Spot

Lightweight knife

Small first Altoids survival first aid kit with basics.

Small LMF fire steel

Cell Phone

Dri Ducks

Smart wool light weight socks as i run sockless. This is mostly if i am cold or in a pinch god forbid.

Insulation/top still have yet to decide on this one. Think like Patagonia Nano puff hoody or R1?

Then food, mostly just gel, dried or dehydrated fruit and meats? I try not to eat anything processed so this is gonna be hard as i think i may have to use gels. I am thinking of making that crap outa chia as my running fuel and sticking to dried fruit, meats and nuts for dinner and breakfast?

I figure this will all cost me like 8-10 lbs without the hydration bladder full of water?

Ok so maybe not uber light but from my winter ice climbing kit it sure as hell is to me!! Next summer season on solo trips i will ditch the tent for a tarp..

[Dustin Short]

Rule #1) Buy a scale. It will be a sobering and liberating revelation! Your tent probably weighs 3lbs and most hydration packs weigh just as much, despite small volume. So already you're at 7+lbs with just the big 3.

As for your list, not terrible (weights withstanding) but some major holes. Sleeping pad isn't listed anywhere. You want this as most heat will be lost to the ground, not air if you don't have one (plus it helps for a better night of sleep which is priceless).

Does your tent fit in the pack with room left for clothes/food?

For insulation you definitely want something with loft, either down or synthetic. Fleece is just too heavy for the weight. Trash compactor bag cut to size for your pack liner.

You should also put some kind of warm head wear in there, a fleece or merino beanie should do the trick.

There are plenty of calorie dense unprocessed food that's suitable for the trail. The forums should be a great source for recipes. And chocolate is your friend (especially on short 36-48hr trips).

I'm sure others will chime in with more thorough information.

[patrick walsh]

Yes you are right about the pack and bladder. Pack is 1.10 oz and Camelback does not list the weight of its bladders. I think i will hack up and off anything not needed on both of these items though. I am willing to carry the weight for a cozy pack that allows me to run full on all with no problems hence trying to save weight everywhere. And also by carrying very very little else.

I opted out of a pad for this time of year as i figured it is warm enough i should now be able to get away with it? Am i wrong? I sleep directly on the floor at home every night so i am more than used to a hard sleeing surface and prefer it as i have a perfectly good bed. I venture only into a bed when i spend the night with the old ball and chain lol…

So you i was thinking the Patagonia Nano puff vrs the down sweater as i could get quite a bit of use outa this in my winter ice climbing kit. Should i just suck it up and have both the down sweater for 3 season camping and the nano for winter insulation. Tbh in winter i just stick to either a Pat 1 often when on the move or when climbing a Pat 1, R1 and a Soft shell hoody. The nano would only really come in handy sitting around and then just be kinda not enough insulation probably?

Anyway back on topic. Food people give me great non perishable non processed food ideas that make quick easy to eat and digest on go fuel and good morning and evening meals that i can still look forward to.

[patrick walsh]

My pack will hold tent, sleeping bag, and minimal clothing and food no problem. I am leaving out the pad as i would prob go with a Neo air or long tem a Kooka bay "wait time" as the size thing is just killing me tbh. I def dont want some foam thing flopping around all day while i am running. Tent pole can also fit inside the bag if i want..

Pack is a Gregory Miwwak 22 with… 1.10 oz

Bladder is Camelback 1000z no idea of the weight.

I have a gram scale somewhere i just gotta find it?!!

[Dustin Short]

Well if you're content with the pack then keep it. I too prefer how a pack carries rather than an overall low weight, and under 2lbs is good enough.

Nano-puff should be fine for you. Since you ice climb you'll be far more aware of what keeps you warm and cold than I can advise you on. Also with the wetter climate and a down bag it's probably a really good idea to mix up your insulation type just in case your gear gets soaked. Here in AZ pretty much the only severe rain we deal with is during the monsoon, and that literally feels like a warm shower, so down rules.

As for the pad depends. I assume you live in New England somewhere so the floor you sleep on has a high chance of being wooden, right? If so, wood is fairly insulative in itself and then having dead air under it helps too. If you sleep on a concrete floor, you'd probably notice being much colder. The difference of sleeping on the basement floor vs any other floor in the house.

However, since you're only out for one night and have a full bag, you can easily experiment without much risk. You may just have one cold night of shivering and say "never again" or you may discover that you can save some weight on a lot more of your trips.

Maybe setting up your tent over softer ground that has a lot of decaying vegetative matter could help. Essentially a compost heap that may be generating enough heat to keep you warmer (along with being softer). I live in the desert where at best our softest ground is thorn free but millions of broken rocks (ie sand). It will suck away your heat pretty fast even in the summer. New England soil shouldn't be so bad in the summer.

[patrick walsh]

I used to spend my winters in Arizona. I would agree the climate and set of needs to be very different. With that said i am not saying i can get away without a pad of some sort. Like you suggest i will try it out sans pad this coming week when the temps are moderate and if it sucks and i shiver all night then i will never do it again. I will def get a baller Kooka bay down pad for my winter affairs though. I should probably get to ordering that now so i have it when i need it. I hate having to have doubles of things being i still play outside in the winter. I try my best to buy one thing that can multi task..

As for the Nano Puff i agree the mixing of the down and synthetic to be smart. On the other hand i found that the Ultra light Down Pullover by Patagonia is under 5oz gets great reviews for warm and a great dwr. I may just have to have it as i will save me 10oz over the Nano puff.

Ow and yes it is a hardwood floor and yes i have a basement so you are correct. I have thought about that and was more talking about being ok on the hard hard ground. I like you figured in new England i cam improvise with some soft branches or growth if need be in a real pinch?

[Dustin Short]

Yeah, you should be able to do so. This is all mainly for comfort anyway. It being summer you're not likely to be facing life-threatening cold. There's always a fire to make if you need it to survive. Using branches will create a very poor lofted insulation that will trap dead air and keep you warmer than exposed rock, and maybe warmer than soil (although it may be lumpier). This is why you see dead leaves and pine needles used as insulation on survival shows.

You got it right, spending winter in AZ. I did it backwards in college. Spent my winters going to school in Boston and summered in the desert. Nothing like experiencing the worst that both regions have to offer!

I also hear you on the redundant gear. I have my UL backpacking gear, but since I also climb (rock, I avoid ice like the plague) I have my abrasion tolerant gear as well.

Hope your runs go well this summer.

[Nate Davis]

I think the SPOT is probably kind of unnecessary. I've hiked in every corner of New England and never felt the need for one. MAYBE in the Whites or Northern Maine, but even then you're super unlikely to be in a situation where you need one. Winter is another story, but for your summer list… I'd leave it behind.

[patrick walsh]

I kinda agree. Depending it can get kinda like going to the mall on the trails up north in New England certain times of the year.

The only two things holding me back are that i travel alone, always weekdays when the trails are a bit more vacant, i have a pretty bad chronic sprained ankle and i run so?

Other than that MOM bought it for me and i feel kinda obligated even though i am 34 years old lol..

During the winter i could care less and am glad to have it as i climb ice alone all the time and venture far off trail. Most times in winter i don't see a sole all dam day. Ahh just the way i like it. I miss winter so bad, come on winter!!!!

[Nate Davis]

It's not the end of the world if you throw it in your pack, just realize that it's more of a want than a need. If you run, it's definitely worth getting rid of as much weight as possible. I've got my fastpacking baseweight under 7 lbs and am still trying to get it lower (without spending much money). That extra pound can be felt after a 25+ mile day.

Where are you planning on going?

[patrick walsh]

On the 7lb fast pack weight. Is that an overnight kit? And if so does it account for rain and maybe evening under 40%?

I am not sure where i plan to go. Mostly the Whites and some of the Green Mountains. Last week i did a extended Franconia Ridge loop starting at the Flume.. it ended up being 17 miles and we did it in like 4.5 hours. Nothing amazing but my GF was with me so.. she do do IronMans but is still female so the fitness does not quite match. Pretty bad ass though to have a girlfriend that is willing to do this stuff not to mention keep a stiff pace.

I hope this week to head up and do a Prezy traverse starting on Willard and then spend the night somewhere over near Madison. Then get up early in the am and meet my girlfriend at Lowes or something and figure out another 8-10 mile loop we can make some quick work of and still get back to the burbs of Boston early enough to get in a nice dinner.

Other than that i think i would like to do the long version of the Pemi loop in solo in a short day by seasons end. I will prob start by doing it as an overnight and breaking it up into two back to back 15 mile runs with lots of camp time. Then once i feel i know the trails and what i have ahead of me try and pound it out in less than 10 hours?

Ow yeah, i think i am suffering from a case of turf toe at the moment all the sudden so i am no tlonger sure the Prezy Traverse will take place this week but?

[Nate Davis]

I'll be doing the Pemi Loop as a 3 day with my wife in August. Can't wait. 10 miles a day in the Whites should be a nice mix between challenge and leisure. We're camping one night and staying at Greenleaf the other.

I'd love to do it as a one day solo at some point, but that probably won't be this year as I'm already squeezing a lot in, both time and mile-wise. Next year, for the sake of pure masochism, I think I'd like to try and do an out and back on that Presi Traverse, so around 46 grueling miles in under 24 hours. Seems "fun."

I actually had a thread going about my fastpacking list not too long ago. Check it out, as it has some great info as well as a link to my current list. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=48915&skip_to_post=415837#415837

[Mike Clelland]

It's hard to review your list, because it is sort of incomplete.

My advice is to get a scale and to create a COMPLETE list of EVERY piece of gear you plan on taking. Nothing left out, nothing extra.

[patrick walsh]

Incomplete?

I could get crazy and go with a bag, pad, bivy head net, some water, a fire steel and a emergency/first aid kit, headlamp, cell phone, spot.

I can run from water source to water source in the Whites so i don't even need much water tbh. Grab 3000 calories in the form of 400 calorie energy/granola bars and i am good to go. Ow and an xtra pair of sox in case of blister as i run sockless.

Not being a jerk this is just the way i travel. What is it you seem to think i am missing? No need for maps or a compass as i know the Whites like the back of my hand.

[Dustin Short]

He means you're missing all of your toiletries, light sources, water treatment, etc.

Some may be contained in your altoid kit, but you should list the contents anyway as a matter of etiquette. If you want a constructive review of your gear list, you have to provide the most thorough list possible.

Your list is incomplete as posted. There are somethings that can be left home if you're willing to risk it (like water treatment if you boil or trust the water quality). But some things can't, like a flashlight (at least throw in a photon). You also have a firestarter but no mention of cookware of any type. Do you plan to utilize current firepits, make your own (not very LNT) or use some kind of stove?

Mike has a pretty good point on the completeness. At the very least, if you plan to leave something behind that most consider essential, you should mention that you are (and hopefully have a decent rationale for doing so).

-Dustin

[patrick walsh]

I think my question was more loosely stated and more like a does this seem along the right track and if not what am i missing or what could i replace for something lighter kinda question.

However i am trying to travel very very light. Being i am only doing overnight trips i am more than willing to rough it to travel light. For instance i will not cook or boil anything hence i need no stove. I will live off dried fruit, nuts and stuff of that sort, or maybe 5-6 of those crazy high calorie bars? I can run from water source to water source in the Whites so no need to carry water treatment tools. I do however carry about 10 water tabs in my survival kit. I also know the whites the back of my hand so i do not even have a need for a map tbh.

Toilet paper and a head lamp are about the only two things i can think of that i did not mention that i will bring.

I will revise a proper itemised list later or in a few minutes if i feel up to it tonight.

[patrick walsh]

pack
Gregory Mewok 22 1.10

dry sack pack liner
Mountain Lourel Designs 13x 27 cubin 1.2oz

100oz hydration bladder
Camelback 1.05

Tent
Black Diamond lighthouse no stuff sacks or floor 3lbs

sleeping bag
WM Summerlite 1.3

Cap 1 pants
4.2oz

cap 1 top
4.0oz

Dry ducks
1lb

light weight hat
5.0oz

light weight gloves
5.0oz

xtra pair of running sox
Patagonia light weight or like 1oz

light weight down hoody
WM Flash 9oz

head lamp
SureFire Saint 3.3oz

survival/first aid
8oz

toilet paper
?

cell phone
?

spot
5oz

I came up with 9.91875lbs and i forgot a pad but it sounds like that could be as little as 3.5oz so that would make it just over 10 lbs? Like i said not light but far from heavy for all the crap i am carrying with me. Not so light after you add 6lbs of water and maybe 2lbs of food. That is a total of 17lbs carried and quite heavy if you ask me!!?

I think food and water are kept separate form pack weight i think. I hope as 100oz of water crazy bleeping heavy!!

[David Drake]

…by your numbering system for the weights. Your pack is 1 pound 10 ounces, right? And the Summerlite 1 # 3 oz? Does that mean your Camelback is 1 # 5 oz, or 1# 0.5 oz? Or 1.05 oz? If the former, that's really heavy. Platy 2 liter = 1.3 oz plus another 2.4 oz for hose+bite valve.

Do you need the DriDucks pants?

Hat and gloves seem pretty heavy as well–are you sure your scale is accurate? The beanie and gloves I use are 1.6 oz and 1.7 oz respectively, and neither would win awards for SUL.

Several headlamps available for ~1 oz.

Not sure what is in survival/first aid. 8 oz seems heavy. My repair/FAK runs 1.7 oz. , but that doesn't include firestarter, map, compass, blade, DEET, etc.

You said up thread you could run from water source to water source–to me that means carrying 1 liter, max. Perhaps you mean something different? I'd hate to be carrying 3 liters of water if I could avoid it.

2# of food for overnight sounds about right, but most dried fruit and meats (which you mentioned elsewhere, IIRC) are not very calorie-dense. Mike C! had an article on his 1.4# of food per person per day system which I found very helpful–it may be subscription only, tho.

If Mike C! weighs back in, he'll prob. tell you to nix the TP. I tried it, and it works just fine. One less thing to worry about, or forget, and keeps trash out of the backcountry and out of my pack. Other people have somewhat different opinions.

Sounds like you're almost there. Can't wait for the first trip report. Happy running/hiking!

[patrick walsh]

Some great tips there and food for thought..

This is exactly the kinda conversation i was trying to stir up in regard to my pack and gear.

As for the Hydration sleeve yup that is like 1lb .o5oz at least that is what they told me via phone at Camelback.

As for gloves and hat i went heavy. My survival and first aid kit are heavy as that is one place i do not travel light as i travel alone 99.9% of the time and usually it is in winter and trails can be scary dead mid week when i tend to get out.

I had a trip planned for the next couple days but came down with a case of Turf Toe early last week. Needless to say i am on strict rest and obsessing over getting my kit dialed in for whatever ends up being left of the summer fall season when i heal. I normally head up two days a week anyway this was just gonna save me some driving back and forth and get me two days back to back..

[Dustin Short]

My 100oz camelbak only weighs in at ~8oz. I just have the blue plastic, no insulation or fabric over the bladder. If you can remove the bladder just use that, saves you a pound.

If you can bear to part with the camelbak and just take two very light 1L bottles, you can save a lot of water weight. Especially if you just fill up at every water crossing you come to. It's hard though, I love having a bladder for constant drip hydration instead of binge hydration, so may not be feasible for you.

[Serge Giachetti]

i'd look into getting a lighter pack, and get rid of the camelback hydration system. I use a frontier pro water filter ($15-$20, 2 oz) and a 1 liter platypus (1 oz). I won't even carry water on me if I know water sources are abundant. I only recommend this though if you have a good sense of your bodies hydration needs in different temps and exertion levels etc. and you know the area well. Regardless, a camelback hydration system is overkill.
IMO if you're running, you should aim to have an SUL base weight (less than 5lbs). I'm sure you could run with more, but what fun is running with a 12-15 lbs on your back? ;) Also, I'd nix the lighthouse, and get a lightweight tarp. You could save yourself 2-2.5 lbs, and you don't necessarily have to spend a lot for a basic tarp that's sub 10oz.

If you feel like experimenting, try going without a pad, but I think you'll be surprised by how much heat the ground steals from you. A 3 oz nightlight pad, or other closed cell foam, will make a world of difference. Its possible to use organic material for insulation, but that could take a bit of time and effort each night for not a lot of warmth.

Since you already have some key pieces like a nice down bag and jacket, I'd invest another $150-$200 in a UL tarp, backpack and groundpad. That should bring you a lot closer to a comfortable running weight, and I bet you could find them all for cheap on the gearswap.

[Nate Davis]

Patrick, did you get a chance to take a look at my gear list, and the thread that accompanied it? It's not a perfect list by any means, but it should give you an idea of what you can get away with and how light you can actually go.

You should be able to shave a lot of weight off your total just by making a couple of key changes.

Like Serge said, ditch the tent and get a tarp. That should be your first move, as it'll lighten your load considerably. That's a fine tent for solo backpacking, but for fastpacking and running, you should really go lighter. You did say you're cool with roughing it, after all. ;) Honestly, I wouldn't even call using a tarp roughing it. I sleep way more comfortably with all that ventilation, and I get a killer view.

Depending on what you have to spend, you can save more than 2.5 lbs. Even if you don't have much money at all to throw at it, you can save a lot of weight by just using a blue tarp from Walmart or wherever and some lightweight cord for guylines. My setup cost me around $60. I bought an Integral Designs Siltarp off gear swap for $40, a good deal of Air Core line (also off gear swap) for $10, and six Easton stakes for ~$10. Total weight for that whole setup? 9.15 oz, or about 1/6th of your tent's weight!

Get a lighter pack. You should be able to find something that'll suit your purposes perfectly and weigh a fair bit less on gear swap. If you keep your eyes open, I doubt you'll spend more than $80.

Lots of savings to be had with hydration as well. Use a 1 liter plastic soda, water, or Gatorade bottle for < 1.5 oz. Use a 1 liter Platypus bottle (1 oz) as backup in case there's an area where you have to carry more water. It's collapsible, so it's easy to pack. Total weight savings? Nearly a pound!

Driducks don't really weigh a pound, do they? I generally just carry a windshirt, anyway. I don't care if I get wet when I'm moving fast, as that'll keep me plenty warm, even in low temperatures. When I stop, I'll just put the tarp up and get under my quilt.

Do you really think you'll need the gloves for your summer kit? That shaves 5 oz.

Again, if you know the Whites like the back of your hand, you shouldn't need the SPOT. Take off another 5 oz. I envy your knowledge of the Whites, by the way. I need to spend more time up there…

You can DEFINITELY cut down on your first aid / survival kit. Does that even include things like sunblock, bug spray, Bodyglide, and identification?

My quart-sized ziploc bag that contains all of my miscellaneous items weighs 7 oz, and I plan to shave 2.5 oz off that total by repackaging my sunblock and bug spray. This ziploc contains my first aid materials (ibuprofin, medical tape, tweezers, a few bandaids/gauze bandages), chapstick, cottonballs (firestarters), firesteel, superglue, identification and cash, a bic lighter, and Bodyglide.

I keep a small knife with a few micropur tabs in another ziploc in my pack's side pocket.

What else do you really need for first aid and survival? No need to pack winter items, because this is for summer trips.

Between all of the above, I think you can shave 4 lbs off your list. That's going to feel awesome on your back!

Now, some things I think you forgot to add:

-Are you carrying a pack cover or liner? I'd recommend it. I use a 2.5 oz trash compactor bag.

-Like you said, you need a sleeping pad. Figure 3.5-5 oz.

-Are you bringing a camera? I guess your cell phone could double, but I like having an actual camera on my trips. When fastpacking, I take very few pictures, but often do a video journal while moving.

-Are a knife (or razor blade) and compass included in your survival kit? Even if you know the Whites well, it's worth having a compass and perhaps a low detail map in the event that you get turned around and find yourself off the trail.

Those items will probably add half a pound or so, but you'll still be in far better shape if you can take advantage of some of that weight savings. You should be able to do everything for under $200.

[patrick walsh]

Now you guys are really getting me thinking.

As i was aware my shelter and pack are the places i cold save the most weight.

I will share my concerns in going a different route.

First a shelter. I have never pitched a tarp and i don't know how hard it is to do without trekking poles. I don't use poles and i don't wanna carry or buy them just for a shelter.

Second and probably my first concern is "BUGS" i hate being getting eaten by bugs and most of the year this is something to contend with in New England.

Third is rain, i don't like to have to plan my trips around weather unless it is sever and just a wash out. Being i have never seen a tarp used or setup i have concerns about staying dry. Shit i have had rivers running under traditional tents even with much thought put into pitching and site choice. Other than that how do you keep rain from blowing in. I live in New England if i stay home cuz rain is in the forecast i would never leave the house!!

The pack, first i get many brand names for cost or cost less 15-30% so i am often swayed a certain direction by the fact that i say payed $55 for a $120 pack. Other than that i am big on my pack fitting and being made specific for runners. I don't want any weird rubbing or chaffing or overheating due to poor design or design not intended for running. Other than that i would be more than happy to replace my pack in a minute!!

The other stuff i can deal with and yes my first aid/ survival kit include all the things you mentioned in yours hence the weight of 8oz. I carry razor blades and a lightweight knife so maybe i could ditch the knife. I come from a upbringing backpacking where we would cook pizza in the woods over hot coals. No crap i am for real we would cook pizza. I suppose this was the eighties though and it was as cool then to wear giant boots and carry a 100lb pack as it is now to go barefoot and carry a stuff sack with an apple in it lol..

[patrick walsh]

Being that i run i like to stay hydrated. I also run a pretty stiff pace, "well at least for me it's stiff" so that means i need to replenish fluids at all times. With that said i will keep the hydration pack and bladder. I will adjust my current setup but non the less i will stay at the least with a bladder is a uber light weight bag.

As for shelter a tarp is in my future but it will need to have a tub floor and bug net and not require poles to setup. When i figure out what tarp i will buy it, till then i am holding out for exactly the right tarp setup. Ow and when conditions warrant i will travel with just the tarp but that will not happen very often in New England TBH!!

A pad is def in my future. Someone else suggested a Gosemer Gear pad it looks like you also suggested a pad. Anyone else have any input on this like Brand, R value i should shoot for if using it May-Sept?

[Nate Davis]

Tarp – I don't use trekking poles either. I tend to be on routes where I have to do a lot of scrambling and it seems like they'd just get in the way. However, I'm just getting over some bad IT Band Syndrome (too many miles too quick once the snow melted), and I have to admit it's making me reconsider.

Anyway, tarps are easy to set up without poles. You just need a tree or two, or a couple of sticks. What I do is tie the front guyline kind of high on a tree, depending on how high I want the pitch to be. The other five guylines (four corners and rear) I stake into the ground. This results in a fairly low pitch to keep the weather out, but with enough headroom to keep me sane.

I also pre-tie my guylines with bowlines in each end. That way I can just string them through the tie-outs in the tarp, put one end through the other's loop, and put a stake through the loop at the end.

With bugs, you'll want a headnet until early July or so. After that it's no big deal. You've slept in AT shelters before, right? Same thing. I can tolerate the bugs just fine once July hits.

Pack – I love my Golite Jam2. I have a 2008 model which is lighter weight and has a few less pockets, but the current models are good as well. The fabric is plenty durable for some bushwhacking, it's got plenty of space, and it hugs the body really well. I've done countless runs with this thing on my back, and speedhikes of up to 41 miles in a day. It also has a great compression system which allows you to cinch it down for days when you have less gear/food. All of this for 21 oz or so.

Also, I come from carrying super-heavy packs as well. We used to carry cast iron dutch ovens so we could make peach cobblers on the trail.

[Author]

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