Bias in writing

[Vlad Putin]

Wool layers will make you feel as warm as if youd brought home those two $500 hookers back from that strip club you visited last night. One blonde, the other brunette.

Course, they’d complain about your LL Bean wool blankets and demand you put silk sheets on the bed.

LMAO

Vlad

[b d]

So is that anything like the way people train or do things at the Rayado thing? I had never heard of it before.

What do they do there — I looked it up and it said it was secret in one description. You sound like you learned a lot or got a lot out of it and are proud of it. b.d.

[Vlad Putin]

I used to wear a GI issue scratchy wool shirt, sometimes with no undershirt or long underwear on underneath. And it never bothered me. Carried a pack, I didnt have “merino wool” eighter. I didnt get a rash, I didnt have a wussy attack either from the scratch.

Hang a cigarrette out of your mouth as you hump up that mountain with that wool shirt half unbuttoned and you look like the Marlboro man.

Vlad

[Vlad Putin]

So is that anything like the way people train or do things at the Rayado thing? I had never heard of it before.

What do they do there — I looked it up and it said it was secret in one description. You sound like you learned a lot or got a lot out of it and are proud of it. b.d.

---

Rayado is the BSA’s version of Outward Bound or NOLS, basically. Yes, its a secret as to the specific contents, but no, they dont physically or emotionally abuse you or threaten to shoot you if you leave early. Quite the opposite, you come out of it feeling sort of like a combination of you just graduated from Marine boot camp but with a strong Daniel Boone tone. I really felt like I could handle myself in the outdoors when I finished that program.

Again, I cannot talk about the detailed content of the program here or some people might come down on me hard.

Personally I dont understand the need for the secrecy thing regarding that program. Being very generalized, I can tell you it is a huge amount of backpacking, a lot miles per day and held only in the summer months.

I didnt learn about wool (nor a lot of other stuff) from the Rayado program. I dont think I even carried any wool garments on Rayado as it was the middle of the summer. I learned a lot of stuff from other BSA programs, other BSA camps, general BSA training, a lot of winter backpacking and camping, etc.

A lot of people in the BSA have never even heard of it unless they’ve been to Philmont. If you go to Philmont, your Ranger will hype it all up and encourage the boys to attend “next year.”

Some people at Philmont will overanalyze the Rayado Trek program and in their description of it, will psychobabble it to death. Talking about things like “group dynamics” and other stuff. I never saw the program like that and still dont. But I would be in the minority and I’m not politically correct at all.

IMO, Rayado Trek is mostly a gut check sort of thing. A lot of outdoor leadership training in it too.

This is just a generalized description of the program, nothing Ive devulged is not already known to outsiders if you ask around.

I better shut up or someone from the PSA will show up here and get my ISP #.

Vlad

[Vlad Putin]

Another well publicized part of the Rayado Trek is they have a very well defined age cutoff. The max age is 21, no waivers that I ever heard of. No adult Scouters are allowed to attend.

What I heard was Philmont doesnt want thirty something or fortysomething adult Scouters having heart attacks in the middle of nowhere at Philmont…thus they have no slots for Rayado. It is a purely indivudal program, guys dont attend as crews, you go as a single individual.

Vlad

[b d]

I just wondered about it. It also said it was a leadership camp on one of the sites I looked at. What did you learn about leadership there and how does it relate to UL? bd

[Vlad Putin]

I havent been to Philmont since the eighties and the Rayado Trek has changed in length. When I did it, it was fifteen days nonstop. Now, I believe it is longer, like twenty days or something.

It was never advertised purely as a leadership camp that I ever saw. Sure, they advertise it as teaching outdoor leadership and “group dynamics” AKA teamwork, but as far as being a purely leadership school, like say, Philmont’s National Junior Leader Training program, Rayado is not. The National Junior Leader Training Program is held at Philmont (or was) and when I was on staff in base camp one summer while still in high school, I saw the program up close.

That is one program I never went thru in the BSA and it is one program I regret not taking part in. Again, its another one of those little known BSA programs held at Philmont that is an individual, not a crew event and is held at the National BSA level and not the local council level or even regional BSA level.

My personal opinion is that quality of anything BSA is going to be much higher at the National level, AKA Philmont and similar programs, than most council and local programs. I wasnt too impressed with most of the local, council sponsored programs in my old BSA council. There were a handful of council programs I went thru that I considered very high quality, but they were few and far between.

But thats just me.

Others will take offense to such statements and I mean no offense anyone. I just found National level stuff to be more, “professional” you might could say.

Getting back to Rayado Trek, there is a strong leadership training aspect to it, but I really cant divulge specifics as Philmont is serious about keeping the nitty gritty details of the program a secret.

I can divulge a few more publically known facts about the program. It is coed (at least it was when I did it). Although the crews were kept separate…female participants stayed in female crews and were led by female “Rayado Rangers.” And same for male participants….most participants were male when I did it.

Another well known fact that Philmont likes to publicize is that successful completion of the Rayado Trek will (almost) guarantee you to be accepted as a Philmont Ranger at some point after high school graduation. Providing of course, that you attain your Eagle Scout rank. Not all Philmont Rangers are graduates of the Rayado Trek program, but many are.

All I can tell you is that if you want to know more about that program, you would have to be a member of the BSA, probably go to Philmont as a Scouter and maybe ask questions.

I think that program is a good alternative for boys in the BSA who are very interested in backpacking, mountaineering, rock climbing and such activities, but maybe their parents cant afford to send them off to a very expensive Colorado Outward Bound or NOLS session. Mine were not willing to pay for anything like Outward Bound of NOLS (my father was very critical of me “wasting” my time and money going to Philmont…he saw it as a mild form of rebellion). My Dad thought Scouts was a “waste of time” until I made Eagle, when he suddenly started acting very proud of me. I paid for all my Philmont trips when I was in high school, airfare, gear, clothes, boots…everything. My parents didnt pay jack.

The cost for the Rayado Trek is much lower than Outward Bound or NOLS.

I can tell you that the Rayado Trek emphasized lighter weight backpacking, I suspect now they are maybe doing UL. But thats just speculation on my part, I have no idea what they are doing out there anymore.

Thats all I can tell you bd, sorry man.

My advice for anybody comptemplating that program would be:

1) get in shape
2) show up with well broken in boots
3) get a base tan before you show up, so you dont get sunburned in the first few days of the program…you will already be in enough pain.
4) wear your boots on the plane to Philmont, that way if you lose your pack and gear on the flight, you at least still have your broken in boots with you.
5) try to get acclimatized to 7-8 thousand foot elevations before you arrive, if that is possible. Particularly if you are coming from sea level elevations. Its a shame if you are all psyched up for the program, are in shape, arrive and then end up with altitude sickness. Big bummer.

6) get in shape
7) get in shape
8) get in shape

May I ask why the interest in that particular program? You have a teenager in Scouting or something?

Vlad

[b d]

Vlad,

You wrote: May I ask why the interest in that particular program? You have a teenager in Scouting or something?

Actually no teenagers here, anymore. You seem to be very happy with that program and got a lot out of it, so just wondered. (Also read it was managed or some other related programs like you are referring to in your last post to military training and personnel, I grew up in the military and my dad was a Green Beret so I just was wondering …)

Was interested in the patch that you have for an avatar. Looked up the words on it on Google, and you had mentioned a program you were in.

Gotta go, exhausted from work here … writing and researching … bd

[Tony Burnett]

I dont need no stinking numbers

---

If you don’t need numbers you migth as well leave now, as the goal of UL backpackers is to find the “best and lightest” gear for the job. It is sort of hard to determine the lightest without numbers. No studies are required, just a scale.

If all you are after is the best regardless of weight, this isn’t the place. As we’d just carry propane heaters with us and sit around camp in our “wife beaters and cut-offs”.

---

It has long been common knowledge that wool layers are “da bomb” with regards to keeping warm in the winter. Particularly in cold/wet or cold/damp environments.

---

OK, I’m willing to help you convince folks that wool is “da bomb” as to-date your arguments have been woefully weak. If fact, I’m not sure you have said anything besides “wool is great, you folks are idiots”. Which isn’t the most convincing argument. If you have no interest in spreading the wool light (sorry), then this thread is more of a trolling experiment than a discussion and should be stopped immediately.

I have re-read your posts and it sounds like you want UL backpackers to consider using wool as a insulating layer in lieu of high-loft insulators such as Primaloft, Polarguard and down. Correct?

This site alreay is pro-wool for base layer, so you don’t need to “sell” that concept.

Furthermore, it appears that you are only talking about winter conditions? Though we need to define winter. Do you mean 25F-45F wet snow and/or rain winter, or sub-25F dry snow conditions?

Also, is this wool garment used while being active (hiking, snowshoeing, skiing, etc.) or used at breaks and in-camp?

[Vlad Putin]

Vlad,

You wrote: May I ask why the interest in that particular program? You have a teenager in Scouting or something?

Actually no teenagers here, anymore. You seem to be very happy with that program and got a lot out of it, so just wondered. (Also read it was managed or some other related programs like you are referring to in your last post to military training and personnel, I grew up in the military and my dad was a Green Beret so I just was wondering …)

Was interested in the patch that you have for an avatar. Looked up the words on it on Google, and you had mentioned a program you were in.

Gotta go, exhausted from work here … writing and researching … bd

---

Hi…

Yes, I own that patch. It looks exactly like that patch and I would never bring that patch to a BSA patch trading meeting, because I’d have to watch it like a hawk or it would be gone. Its a very rare BSA patch.

As far as Rayado Trek having any military connections, no, when I did the program in the eighties, there were zero military connections to the program. More the opposite…most of the Rayado Trek Rangers and staff were college students and being in the eighties and post Viet nam era, I picked up on a lot of anti-military tone from the Rangers and staff.

What the program is like now, for all I know there might be some minor military connections to it or something, as the tone of the country regarding things military has totally changed since the eighties. The Rayado Trek is a National level BSA High Adventure program, not any sort of paramilitary or military sponsored program whatsoever.

Vlad

[Vlad Putin]

If you don’t need numbers you migth as well leave now, as the goal of UL backpackers is to find the “best and lightest” gear for the job. It is sort of hard to determine the lightest without numbers. No studies are required, just a scale.

---

Oh you mean THOSE kinds of numbers? I have no idea. I already admitted that wool is a lot heavier than synthetics or down, but the heavier weight is negated by its unique properties of keeping you warm while wet or damp, the lack of need for a soft shell while wearing traditional wool clothes, the “no stink” factor of traditional wool outdoor clothes and other factors already discussed in this and other recent threads.

---

If all you are after is the best regardless of weight, this isn’t the place. As we’d just carry propane heaters with us and sit around camp in our “wife beaters and cut-offs”.

---

I do not advocate car camping nor carrying around propane heaters. You are missing my point(s), Tony.

---

It has long been common knowledge that wool layers are “da bomb” with regards to keeping warm in the winter. Particularly in cold/wet or cold/damp environments.

---

OK, I’m willing to help you convince folks that wool is “da bomb” as to-date your arguments have been woefully weak.

---

How so, Tony? Please detail how my arguments have been “weak?”

---

If fact, I’m not sure you have said anything besides “wool is great, you folks are idiots”. Which isn’t the most convincing argument.

---

Really? Ive given a ton of facts on here why wool is superior for cold weather backpacking, particularly in cold/wet or cold/damp environments. Have you been reading all the recent wool threads, Tony?

---

If you have no interest in spreading the wool light (sorry), then this thread is more of a trolling experiment than a discussion and should be stopped immediately.

---

I could turn that around on you and say all this talk about synthetics and goose down being superior for cold weather backpacking is a gigantic line of bs for the naiive and uninitiated.

---

I have re-read your posts and it sounds like you want UL backpackers to consider using wool as a insulating layer in lieu of high-loft insulators such as Primaloft, Polarguard and down. Correct?

---

Reread again dude. Whats in my name? PRIMALOFT! I have specifically stated I use a combination of wool and synthetics. I am a great fan of Primaloft…I think the stuff is great. I also like polypropylene for long underwear. I own two Primaloft parkas and use both of them in cold weather.

I do not like fleece however and I do not like “soft shells.” Soft shells are not even necessary if you are using wool clothing.

---

This site alreay is pro-wool for base layer, so you don’t need to “sell” that concept.

---

You are one dimensional and coming from a very recent time in history, Tony. But do not realize it.

---

Furthermore, it appears that you are only talking about winter conditions?

---

Of course! You think I would be caught dead wearing wool layers in three season or SUMMER backpacking? LOL

That I have been discussing wool for cold weather backpacking has been hammered into the ground here. I do not advocate wool clothing for summer backpacking (although a wool shirt and possibly wool pants might not be a bad idea if you are doing summertime backpacking on the AT, where it is windy and rains a lot).

---

Though we need to define winter. Do you mean 25F-45F wet snow and/or rain winter, or sub-25F dry snow conditions?

---

Define winter, Tony? Um, only for you dude. How about winter is from December 21 thru what? That date in March when spring begins?

---

Also, is this wool garment used while being active (hiking, snowshoeing, skiing, etc.) or used at breaks and in-camp?

---

<shaking head> You dont know what its about, Tony. With wool, you use it it for both…activity and for breaks and camp.

Where did you learn your core knowledge at? Big Joke University?

Did you know you can make a SUL bivvy out of a space blanket and a sheet?

LMAO

Vlad

[Russell Swanson]

Lets please have some restraint and let this bickerfest of a thread die a quiet death.

[Tony Burnett]

Really? Ive given a ton of facts on here why wool is superior for cold weather backpacking, particularly in cold/wet or cold/damp environments. Have you been reading all the recent wool threads

---

I’ve only read this thread. If you have a facted base thread elsewhere, please point me to it. All I see in this thread is “wool is great, you are idiot, and warm when wet”.

So the only fact(?) is “warm when wet” the rest is is hearsay and opinons.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reread again dude. Whats in my name? PRIMALOFT! I have specifically stated I use a combination of wool and synthetics. I am a great fan of Primaloft…I think the stuff is great. I also like polypropylene for long underwear. I own two Primaloft parkas and use both of them in cold weather.

---

So, your argument is only with down?

Most would agree that a down used in wet winter conditions isn’t such a good idea. Espeically for longer trips (3+ days).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I do not like fleece however and I do not like “soft shells.” Soft shells are not even necessary if you are using wool clothing.

---

OK, now we are getting somewhere, you have issues with softshells. Well, that’s is easy to understand. As wool, used correctly, is bascially a softshell by most definitions. Most would agree that softshells are worthless as activewear in warm weather (25F+). Now if you are sitting around camp, or casually skiing down the slops, softshells aren’t so bad. Or if the temps drop quite a bit, say sub-20F and there is a bit of wind, softshells aren’t so bad.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of course! You think I would be caught dead wearing wool layers in three season or SUMMER backpacking? LOL

---

Actually, I wear my wool socks and wool base layers year round. Mostly for the stink factor. My body seems to have an aversion to poly.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh you mean THOSE kinds of numbers? I have no idea. I already admitted that wool is a lot heavier than synthetics or down, but the heavier weight is negated by its unique properties of keeping you warm while wet or damp, the lack of need for a soft shell while wearing traditional wool clothes, the “no stink” factor of traditional wool outdoor clothes and other factors already discussed in this and other recent threads.

---

On this site, those numbers are quite important. And many folks disagree that something what weights 50+% more is “worth the weight”. For the other benefits.

Frankly, the “warm when wet” issue is quite minor. How often do you get “wet”, really “soaked” in winter?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Define winter, Tony? Um, only for you dude. How about winter is from December 21 thru what? That date in March when spring begins?

---

Now you are just being difficult. We all know there is a big difference between hiking in 25F-40F “winter” versus a sub-20F winter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
With wool, you use it it for both…activity and for breaks and camp.

---

The same garment for both? Or two different pieces?

[Author]

Posts