Apr 17, 2011 at 5:54 am #1272368
I am in the process of building a ul synthetic quilt and I have heard varying reports on how warm 5 oz Climashield Apex is. Does anyone have experience with this kind of insulation?Apr 17, 2011 at 7:08 am #1725528
@newtonLocale: Southeastern Louisiana
This is copied and pasted from Tim Marshall's website.
2.5oz Climashield APEX good to approximately 45*F
5oz Climashield APEX good to approximately 25*F
7.5oz Climashield APEX good to approximately 15*F
Notice the word approximately in each rating. YMMV
What are you using for the outer covering? Do you sleep warm or cold?
Hope this helps. BTW Tim does help us MYOG types by answering questions. He is a good guy. He helped me a lot.
NewtonApr 17, 2011 at 7:30 am #1725535
Thanks for the info. I am a somewhat warm sleeper and I will be using a tarp. If the 5 oz Apex gets me in down to 25 I will be happy and somewhat surprised because it only has 1.2 of loft as listed by thru-hiker.Apr 17, 2011 at 7:44 am #1725539
According to thru-hiker, 5 ounce Apex is 1.2 inches, 4.1 clo
According to Richard's chart, 4.1 clo is good down to 52 F
According to Ray Jardine's formula, 1.2 inches is good down to 52 F
Wow, Richard and Ray agree on that one
I don't know why that's so far off Tim's estimate, because Tim is a reliable source of information
Maybe my math is wrong, someone correct me : )
You need 2 layers of 5 ounce Apex for 25 F
Or, one layer of Apex and wear a jacket or vest out of 5 ounce ApexApr 17, 2011 at 7:57 am #1725544
Hmmm… I wonder because as you said Ray's formula for 1.2" of loft comes in at 52 degrees but if you doubled the thickness you would have 2.4" of loft and that would come in at 4 degrees. Is it possible that Apex somehow doesn't work with this formula?Apr 17, 2011 at 8:08 am #1725548
Richard and Ray are one sided loft – 1.2 inches for 5 ounce Apex
My interpretation of Richard/Ray is 52 F
Tim Marshall 25 F
These are inconsistent
Apex can not be different without defying the laws of thermodynamics : )
I will be interested to see if anyone can resolve this inconsistencyApr 17, 2011 at 8:09 am #1725549Apr 17, 2011 at 8:16 am #1725551
My -20 degree down bag has 4 1/2" of loft on Ray's formula that comes in at -80 degrees even though I have used this bag many times and find that it's -20 rating is quite accurate. Also as far as I know there is no bag on the market that is rated to -80. Is it possible that the formula is not accurate?Apr 17, 2011 at 8:29 am #1725557
Is your 4.5 inch loft the thickness of the top layer? or top and bottom layer together?Apr 17, 2011 at 8:31 am #1725560
just the top layer. The top and bottom layer combined would be 7.5" of loft.Apr 17, 2011 at 8:45 am #1725565
I agree, 4.5 inch is -80 F using the formula
I don't know, maybe someone else has an opinion
What brand and model is your sleeping bag?
I was just looking at Nunatak Aplinist sleeping bag, randomly selected – 2.5 inches of loft, they say it's 20 F. The formula would say 0 F. Nunanatak is conservative, that's good. Aproximately consistent.
I have a sleeping bag that's 0.5 inch, I wear a vest that's 0.625 inch, plus a shirt and jacket that are maybe 0.25 inch, 1.375 inch total, 45 F according to the Ray formula, below about 40 F I start getting cold, so that's pretty consistent.Apr 17, 2011 at 8:50 am #1725569
My bag is an EMS Mntn Light -20. I am completely baffled as far as the formula goes. I guess I will just have to make the quilt and hope it keeps me warm to 35 or so degrees. I will post again when I find out the real warmth of 5oz Climashield Apex.Apr 17, 2011 at 9:02 am #1725578
I just googled it – they don't list loft in their specs, looks like a high quality bag with 800 fill (European) down
I bet someone else, like Tim, will say somethingApr 17, 2011 at 9:53 am #1725589
@socal-nomadLocale: North San Diego county
Richard and Rays loft information from 2007 is from older generation of climashield verse climashield apex . It seem both climashield and primaloft have been able to manufacture more thermal efficient insulation in lighter weights and thickness of older generations of their products.
TerryApr 17, 2011 at 10:20 am #1725597
Ray makes a statement in his book Trail Life that two inches of shredded newspaper would have roughly the same warmth as two inches of down or two inches of synthetic (pg 80). If this is true then his formula should accurately measure the warmth of a bag (give or take the persons personal preference). Since it seems like his formula is not working then maybe this is not true and certain insulations can be thinner but have a better ability to trap air or something. Any thoughts on this?Apr 17, 2011 at 10:37 am #1725603
> certain insulations can be thinner but have a better ability to trap air or something
That is true in the home market at least. Standard fiberglass R-19 is 6.25" thick, but you can get "high density" R-21 that is only 5.5" thick.Apr 17, 2011 at 12:14 pm #1725643
R-21 = 3.8 R/inch = 4.3 clo/inch
R-19 = 3.0 R/inch = 3.5 clo/inch = 21% less
Styrofoam = 3.9 R/inch = 4.4 clo/inch
taking thru-hikers data Apex is 4.1 clo / 1.2 inch = 3.4 clo/inch
there all within about 25%Apr 18, 2011 at 5:54 am #1725960
Ray's formula isn't so great. 100-40(loft)=temp has never been very accurate for me. His formula says a bag with 2.25" will keep the user warm to 10*F. I don't think so. I have based my down ratings on an old BPL chart relating loft to warmth. It is older and tries to state that warmth is the same for all insulation of a given loft (which isn't true) but has been pretty accurate on down temps for me and i haven't heard any complaints from customers. The climashield is tougher. I have rated it based on real world personal experience along with ratings from customers and tried to balance that against the MLD and thru-hiker(took their ratings down a year ago i think) ratings. I have used 2.5oz down to 30* and it was cold, at about 60* it was too hot, at 45* it was just right (3 bears style) This is similar to others ratings and feedback and so it is where i landed.
It is important to note that each person generates heat differently and the ability of the bag to keep you warm (trap that heat) can be limited by how much heat you generate. I push a lot of heat so a given bag will keep me warm in lower temps then someone who pushes less heat. (yeah i am sure there is no science to support me on this but i have seen it over and over) Also what one person finds a comfortable sleeping temp another person may find cold. These variables make it very hard to offer definitive information about temp ability of an insulation.
-TimApr 18, 2011 at 6:49 am #1725968
@newtonLocale: Southeastern Louisiana
Take a look at
this page from MLD's website.
It contains the info below that I copied and pasted into this post.
4.8oz sq/yd Climashield Apex (Approx 120gms sq/m)
X Large: 26oz
2.4oz sq/yd Climashield Apex (Approx 60gms sq/m)
Small: 11 oz
X Large: 19oz
Shell Fabric AND Lining Fabric: Momentum M90 20d X 20D DWR
Insulation: 2011 Climashield Apex
These numbers seem to agree with the numbers on Tim's website for the Prodigy quilt. Only the temp rating for the 5 oz Apex is different and then only by 5 degrees, a 25 degree rating vs a 30 degree rating.
Click on the embedded link above and then scroll down to the bold heading Temp Range. Read everything enclosed in the green outline from that point down to the bottom. It contains quilt sleeping strategies and some ideas of what to wear at certain temperatures in either of MLD's quilts.
BTW I'm not sure if it was intended but the Spirit Quilt 30 sleep strategy for a temperature of 35 degrees gave me cause to smile. ;-)
NewtonApr 18, 2011 at 8:35 am #1726008
I know this is confusing and trying to come up with definitive conclusions is probably hopeless, but
WM and Nunatak have 2.5 inch loft for 20 degree rating, FF has 3 inch for 10 degrees which is consistent, and Nunatak has 0.75 inch for 35 degree bag
2.5 oz Apex = 0.6 inch = 45 degrees
5 oz Apex = 1.2 inch = 30 degrees
based on those, it's 25 degrees F per inch of loft (15 degrees / 0.6 inch)
then 2 layers of 5 oz Apex would be 2.4 inches and 0 degree F
But the down bags are rated at 20 degree F for that loft
Does Apex have more unsulation value per inch of loft (clo/inch) than down?
If you plot the down bags, plus a 35 degree Nunatak bag, plus the two apex, plus Ray and Richard's formula you get:
I just drew a straight line through the down bags and Apex and called it "hypothetical"
Maybe that's a better formula
49 – 12.3 * loft in inches
Or, maybe I should just be happy with Apex 5.0 oz = 30 degrees, 2.5 = 45 degrees, and call it good : )Apr 18, 2011 at 12:14 pm #1726130
synthetics can be warmer per unit of loft than down. Also the loft of the synthetic won't be consistent over time. As it loses loft it will only be slightly less warm until the point it isn't warm anymore.
Ray's formula assumes 1" of loft of any loose object has the same ability to retain heat but this isn't true. Down will be warmer per ounce, but this isn't the same as per inch. It takes much less loft of APEX to make the same temp then it does with down, but down will still be lighter, unless the quilt is for temps warmer than 35* then the weight savings of down will decrease and the complexity of creating a good baffle system will get crazy. For lowest weigh consider this: over 45* use synthetics, under 35* use down, in the middle it is pretty close and comes down to packed space where down will win but has to be balanced with the increased difficulty of controlling small amounts of down.
-TimApr 18, 2011 at 4:13 pm #1726248
From what you guys have said I am going to put Ray and Richard's formula to the side and rely only on the experience of others which I think is far more accurate. 30 or 35 degrees is probably a safe answer to this question. I just got my quilt materials so i will go ahead and make this thing and post again with pics when it's done. Thanks to everyone for all the great input.Apr 19, 2011 at 8:19 am #1726537
This discrepency between Richard's data and Tim's experience bugs me
I was looking at http://www.mammut.ch/images/Mammut_Sleep_well_pt1_E.pdf
They describe an experiment, called the SINTEF experiment, where they had 6 men, 6 women, 7 sleeping bags, a bunch of temperatures in a climate chamber (so still air)
They determined the comfort level for each sleeping bag – minimum comfortable temperature.
The straight line is within +- 1 degree C with 95% confidence level above -15 degree C and somewhat higher below -15 C.
I converted to clo and degrees F because we Americans are such wienies.
Plot of Richard's curve, the 5 and 2.5 ounce Apex that Tim reported, and the SINTEF result:
As you can see, the SINTEF result is consistent with Tim's report.
If Richard used a MET level of about 1.3 for sleeping, rather than 0.8, his data would also be consistent. If you use MET = 0.8 you're overly conservative.
As far as the down goes, I didn't see any manufacturers that spec'd clo, just loft. If, as Tim reported, down has less clo per inch of loft, then it would be consistent with the SINTEF curve and Richard's chart with MET = 1.3.Apr 19, 2011 at 12:09 pm #1726647
>> Does Apex have more insulation value per inch of loft (clo/inch) than down?
Yes. More warmth per loft.
From what I can figure its about like 550-600 down warmth per weight.Apr 19, 2011 at 2:43 pm #1726717
I was into making the quilt and I came across a small dilemma (not related to the insulation but I thought it wouldn't harm to put it on this thread anyway). I ordered 2 72" by 60" sheets of 1.1 oz ripstop nylon (one light green and one black) from thru-hiker. They were out of stock of the green so they sent me a sheet of M90 (a slightly darker green)which was extremely nice since M90 is twice the price of 1.1 oz ripstop (makes me want to order there again). The only question I have is which one to use for the top of the quilt. M90 is a mini ripstop and has a DWR but has a finished weight of 1.05 oz/yrd to the 1.1 oz nylon's 1.25 oz/yrd does this mean the M90 is slightly less durable than the 1.1 oz ripstop? Or is the M90 better constructed and thus equally? The 1.1 oz stuff is black and I have often heard to use the darker color on the inside. By the way sweet charts.
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