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Speaking of light; wouldn’t sharing gear make our packs much lighter?


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  • #1715392
    Mike W
    BPL Member

    @skopeo

    Locale: British Columbia

    #1715393
    Tim Zen
    Spectator

    @asdzxc57

    Locale: MI

    Comparing my solo list versus when we go on a family trip, there is not much weight savings. For example, my solo tent is 930g. The two person tent is 1200g, so I save 330g. Running through the rest of the list, I could save at most 500g.

    You will have to run the numbers.

    On one family hike I thought we would save weight by sharing bug repellant, sun block, … The kid lost the bug repellant. Now each person is self sufficient.

    #1715397
    Derek Goffin
    Member

    @derekoak

    Locale: North of England

    My wife and I do share a small 2 person tent, a single sleeping bag turned into a double top bag, a stove, (in summer an English 500ml beer can, with 2 pot noodle pots as can protection and cup/plates). Also map and navigation gear (except an extra compass and overview map). First aid kit, sewing kit, aquamira… lots of little things. I sometimes borrow a stick from her for river crossings. We also share some extra warm clothes, but there is a limit to that. Because of all that our rucksacks are smaller and lighter ( at least hers is). I should think it is difficult to do this to the extreme unless you do it often and can rely on the others. We are pretty much committed to not loosing each other!
    I would imagine sharing with 3 or more would have small extra gains over 2 sharing. On one of their arctic trips Ryan and co shared quilts 3 and 2 I think.

    #1715405
    James Marco
    BPL Member

    @jamesdmarco

    Locale: Finger Lakes

    You would like to think so. In practice, it doesn't really happen except for minorly.
    As others have said, part is the independent mentality. I much prefer to be self sufficient in the event of any emergency. I *know* I can cover myself, two in a pinch.

    I have had people bail on me the day of a trip more than once. Without extra gear in the van, the trip would have been canceled. Basically, I have three sets of gear. An 8lb set I use for UL packing, an 11lb set I use for camping with a partner, and a 14lb set I use for canoe camping. (These are all base weights.)

    The tarp is larger. No way to share that.
    I bring a WG stove instead of alcohol. It boils about 1-1/2 qt of water faster. No way to share that. Along with a larger pot to handle that volume.
    Food weight goes up from 1.1lb/day to about 1.25lb per day. Breakfast and supper become social events. I am not just shoveling down fuel. Extra cooking, means more fuel.
    And so on.

    My hiking partners are often someone from the family. On of the kids (now older adults, 31 and 32 years old) or my wife. I do not expect them to carry the same load as myself. Their packs weigh (base weight) 4-8lb. They are also smaller, so no sexual discrimination implied.
    My wife and one daughter is short at 5' and the other daughter is 5'5". For these it would be nice to split the loads evenly, but a good example is one of our ten day canoe trips. I carried ~23lbs and my daughter carried about the same. When we returned, I was carrying ~13lb and she was carrying 7lb. Food and fuel amounted to about 2.5lb per day, which was close. We came back with a small piece of pepperoni, a small piece of cheese, a chicken noodle soup packet and one chocolate bar…roughly one meal.

    Trust is the big thing. I tend not to trust things I do not have, or, have chosen to drop due to some problem. Case in point was hiking with a partner in the High Peaks of the ADK's. My partner brought a JetBoil. I brought an alcohol stove and 6oz of fuel as back up. Good thing. When he packed up for the last day, his valve stuck on his canister leaking a lot of fuel out. We made supper that night, but ran out of fuel the next morning. Without the alcohol stove, no coffee, no oatmeal…no breakfast. I have had some problems with canister stoves in the past and almost didn't bring the alcohol stove. Glad I did. So trust in *your gear* is equally as important with trust in *your partners gear* when sharing gear.

    Typically, the tarp and screen tent is light enough to carry alone or with two. I often have to go with a ADK lean-to set up instead of a wedge, though. Weighs the same in either case. When both parties are UL, both need an alcohol stove. One does not work all that well for two people. You don't end up carrying less fuel or less gear.

    Anyway, when you are at minimal weights, adding a second person, simply means adding that much more gear. No real weight savings.

    #1715409
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    "Hey Kat I would be willing to try it with you next time. Make sense to me."

    Me too Kat! So your hammock will fit two? ;-)

    ""Ken, I am just waiting for a smartass comment. ; )."
    "Smartass comment from me? Never ;)"

    Perhaps she was thinking of someone else……

    #1715421
    Diane “Piper” Soini
    BPL Member

    @sbhikes

    Locale: Santa Barbara

    > I think that when we see traditional backpackers, with some huge packs, they often share gear, and still carry all that. So the difference between traditional and Light backpacking would be even bigger with shared gear.

    I used to do this kind of packing and sharing gear is half the reason their packs are so big. The shared gear we would have to carry included full-sized kitchen cookware, everything from spatulas and frying pans to plastic tubs for doing the dishes. Depending on what kind of group, they might also have books/Bibles for studying and shovels for digging the latrine.

    #1715422
    Kattt
    BPL Member

    @kattt

    Yes Doug, I was thinking of someone along your lines.

    Well, here is what I think about the other comments.
    Those that don't want to share because:
    1." Other people will have heavier equipment". In this case the theory would not apply. When I go on trip with fellow BPL members, we carry similar gear, and sharing would require planning, and spreadsheets, similar to what many do solo and so that would not be an issue.
    2. "Can't rely on others" . You would have to do this only with people you can rely on. SUL backpackers, also rely on weather not changing suddendly, not getting hurt and stuck and needing more than planned food, and more
    3." There is not much difference between sharing and not" or " I don't know what else we could share besides shelter and maps"……..Well, I don't buy that. There not being much difference, when many of us either cut their toothbrush or leave it at home, and skip toilet paper…How about sharing:
    Shelter. First aid kit. Patch kit. Knife or blade. Lighter. Maps and compass. Food bag and rope to hang it. Whistle. Stove. Any container or vessel for fuel, sunscreen, disinfectatd ….Water treatment, unless is chemical. Some don't bring all these items, but many do, in which case the difference no longer amounts to counting ounces, but rather pounds.
    I know I am nit picking here, but this follows the philosophy behind how we look at gear lists and push each other beyond our comfort zones. So, don't share because you simply don't like to. Don't brush it over, as there not being much weight to save, because that does not add up here.Either way, don't share and know that you could be much more in line with UL and minimalism, if you did.

    #1715452
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    Ah, but everyone should have their own knife and their own basic first aid kit! If you hike separated that becomes very important, as does being able to treat water. To me a lighter or matches is an essential item – everyone should have the ability to start a fire! Same with a whistle – you have to be able to alert others if you were to fall or get hurt and they were not always with you. Maps and compass – again, unless you are always with the other person you need your own.

    Food bag and rope? Nope, for the most part all of us use Ursacks now – though if a person comes along and doesn't have one we will make room for their stuff at night. They usually go buy one after seeing how easy it is ;-)

    #1715457
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    thats just fear … just like some people here saying you dont need the 10 essentials …

    go climbing with a guide even on a multiday climb … and theres likely only one first aid kit anyways …

    matches, whistle, knife … i dont disagree with that … but note there are some people here who carry a razor blade, and dont use whistles

    just as some people will shout "FEAR FEAR FEAR" for people carrying a few extra oz for synthetic bag/clothes, a repair kit, a REAL knife … so they should for not sharing gear when it saves weight

    there is a chance that you get separated … just as there is a chance that your down bag becomes sodden mess … its backpacking, avoidable

    its not like climbing where we use half ropes and split the climbing gear, so that if one partner falls and goes poofy … the other climber has enough gear to get down

    #1715468
    Cayenne Redmonk
    BPL Member

    @redmonk

    Locale: Greater California Ecosystem

    I wouldn't share gear to save weight. It really only works with people that hike the same, break the same, camp the same etc. You don't want to be taking turns wearing the insulated clothes with someone who is on their own trip. Has to be a shared trip to share gear.

    #1715474
    Nick Gatel
    BPL Member

    @ngatel

    Locale: Southern California

    Since I have no experience backpacking with groups, I thought sharing is what groups do. I think I have backpacked with 6 people since 1967. So I really do not have a grasp on this. In the last few years since going UL, I have back packed with 3 people, one each on 3 different trips. But it does make sense, especially for close friends and especially couples.

    One trip was a cold winter trip with my college-aged son. I did not want to share any gear, because it was a teaching trip for him. I wanted him to learn how to set up and use a solo kit. Actually I carried some extra stuff as a "just in case."

    Another recent trip was with a first time backpacker. We did share a stove and cookkit, since we were on a snow trip and would be melting a lot of snow. One stove and cookset did save weight. Again since this was a trip with a first time person, I carried some extra stuff, just incase.

    Last year I did a trip with Criag Wisner. Craig's base weight UL, and mine SUL. Since we had never met each other, I would not have thought to share anything, other than a map and compass (and that could be a bad decision in an emergency) – each hike should carry the essentials.

    But looking back at that trip (which was a great adventure), I wonder what we could have shared.

    Cooking: Most of the time I use a Caldera set-up. Can't get much lighter. My pot is also my drinking cup. I like boil and bag meals. So there isn't much to share, espcially if esbit is used. You could share the graham cracker and both could drink out of the same beer can, which most people would not want to do. And each person would have to take turns eating, which I would think would not be fun in a group setting. Craig uses a Snow Peak canister set-up because he actually cooks, and eats fresh foods. Amazing what he can put together for dinner. So one of us would have needed to change how we cook/eat, and on a long and fast trip it might change one person's rhythm and efficiency.

    Shelter: Craig and I perfer to sleep without a shelter unless the weather is bad. I do not have a two-person, other than a cuben tarp. If I bring my poncho/tarp and bivy, I cannot share either. When I use my larger cuben tarp (5 oz), I do not need a bivy. If I share this tarp, then I would need a bivy, which weighs more than the tarp.

    Water purification: I bring just enough Aquamira tabs as I need, so no savings here.

    First Aid: My kit is about 1 oz. If I help someone else, I am out of the necessities.

    I can't think of anything that would be condusive to sharing.

    I do think Katharina has brought up a good point, and people who know each other well might benefit from sharing. I think that winter camping probably presents more opportunities to share.

    #1715478
    j lan
    Member

    @justaddfuel

    Locale: MN

    People seem to think a multi-person shelter needs to weigh 5-6 pounds, that's just not the case.

    9×9 Oware pyramid = Shelter for 4 people = 6oz per person.
    Sure it's not a hexamid weight but hexamids take a bunch of stakes.

    Grease pot with flashing lid – 2.7oz = 0.67oz per person.

    I think what is the biggest reason listed above is that too many people have had others bail on trips and essentialy ruin the trip for them.

    #1715481
    Diana Vann
    BPL Member

    @dianav

    Locale: Wandering

    Sharing gear can not only reduce weight, it builds a sense of trust and community. It has also increased my safety on certain trips.

    I have two friends who go on at least one trip with me every summer. This summer we will do a kayaking expedition, followed by a backpacking trip. We've been planning trips together every year since 2002. We share many items–first aid kit, the current water treatment supplies (this varies by trip), cooking shelter (when we're near a lot of brown bears, which is often the case when we go to Alaska, we use a separate cooking shelter that's pitched an appropriate distance from the sleeping area), emergency signaling device (in the past this was a sat phone, now we'll carry a SPOT locator), etc.

    We stay together. If someone is struggling, we take some of his or her load. If someone needs to rest or eat, we stop. On past trips those of us who didn't need to rest or eat (at any given stopping point) have produced some amazing photos. The only way we would intentionally separate would be to have someone go for help. So far this has never been necessary. We've had emergencies, but we've been able to deal with those as a group.

    Over the past almost ten years, we've faced some near-death experiences. We all stay calm and work together. One thing we did many years ago, to improve backcountry safety, was to take a Wilderness First Aid course. Sometimes, between needing to renew certifications, to keep our skills fresh, we volunteer to help with WFA classes (this is a very economic way to keep your skills current).

    #1715488
    Diane “Piper” Soini
    BPL Member

    @sbhikes

    Locale: Santa Barbara

    >Shelter. First aid kit. Patch kit. Knife or blade. Lighter. Maps and compass. Food bag and rope to hang it. Whistle. Stove. Any container or vessel for fuel, sunscreen, disinfectatd ….Water treatment, unless is chemical. Some don't bring all these items, but many do, in which case the difference no longer amounts to counting ounces, but rather pounds.

    There may be a few items here we could share, but would it make much difference?

    Shelter – We already share.

    First aid kit – I carry a few bandaids, ibuprofen and a little tiny foil packet of neosporin. Add my bandana. There's nothing to share. I guess we share the cellphone except where we usually go there's no service.

    Patch kit – I have nothing to patch.

    Knife – eww. People clean their feet with their knives. I'll cut my cheese with my own toejam-impregnated knife, thanks.

    Lighter – Okay we could share a lighter.

    Maps and compass – we already share, but I usually have a compass buried in my pack somewhere. He likes GPS.

    Food bag and rope to hang it – I don't hang my food and I use a plastic grocery bag so no weight savings there.

    Whistle – it's built in to my pack. Can't share. I do bring a tin whistle but he doesn't know how to play it, but I would share if he wanted to blow it for an emergency.

    Stove – Yes, we could share the stove.

    Fuel container – Yes, we could share that.

    Sunscreen – we kind of already share that since I always forget and ask to borrow his.

    Water treatment – I bring aquamira. He usually brings a filter. I guess we're already sharing in a way.

    #1715492
    Eugene Smith
    BPL Member

    @eugeneius

    Locale: Nuevo Mexico

    "But for those that bring exact fuel, exact food, no extra anything, counting on staying out only as long as planned, would it not be an extension of that to trust that the partners will cooperate just as much as weather and everything else? Does that break some code? I like to bring all my own gear also, but sometimes I wonder.

    I wonder too Kat.

    "Does that break some code?"

    I think an unspoken one, yes.

    #1715493
    W I S N E R !
    Spectator

    @xnomanx

    When the vast majority of trips I take are hovering around an 8lb. base weight or less- and my partners are typically in the same category- what's the point of sharing? Granted, we each may be able to shave off another pound, but in return, you have the potential complexity of now having to coordinate with each other. Nothing wrong with this, but typically when I head out with others, it's unspoken that you take care of your own needs.

    This doesn't mean you're selfish or don't like community or are cranky and don't want other people touching your stuff. I've had great nights sharing shelters with friends (Laughing my @rse off while getting drunk on red wine by candlelight in the pouring rain in my dripping SL3 with Michael Skwarczek while he's got the place looking like a cheese-smelling steam room -zero visibility and soaking everything- from boiling a pot of pasta indoors).

    It just means you take care of yourself. This relieves anyone else of the peculiarities of your needs, diet, sleeping preferences, etc.

    I think it's far more conducive to getting out a lot when you require as little planning- with yourself and others- as possible. I pack, you pack, meet me at the trailhead. Done.
    I think a lot of people fail to get out as much as they could because they get mired in gear choices, food planning, and packing.

    If you can't pack for a night's trip with some friends in less than 20 minutes your setup is too complicated.

    Not having to ask my friends what they're bringing only makes it easier…other than who's bringing the whiskey :)

    #1715507
    Eugene Smith
    BPL Member

    @eugeneius

    Locale: Nuevo Mexico

    "I think it's far more conducive to getting out a lot when you require as little planning- with yourself and others- as possible. I pack, you pack, meet me at the trailhead. Done.
    I think a lot of people fail to get out as much as they could because they get mired in gear choices, food planning, and packing.

    If you can't pack for a night's trip with some friends in less than 20 minutes your setup is too complicated.

    I agree. Acquired skill and knowledge plays a big role in this process, if someone fails to possess the practical experience then making intuitive packing decisions at the drop of a hat isn't going to be easy.

    There's nothing wrong with taking care of yourself, being self-sufficient and possessing the necessary skills to not be a burden to others- this is being responsible- yes, this is an unspoken.

    What I do sometimes find silly is when you have individuals that make up the whole all squatting around their little fire makers fiddling to achieve the same end (boiled water), when one individual could very easily pack a larger volume pot and serve the others. Sure, this chips away at that 6lb. baseweight, requires patience and selflessness, but what's of utmost importance here? Community is more than being in the same place with other individuals, it's how we engage and interact, how we put aside our preferences, and work together to help others in the group to achieve a mutual end. This could very well mean sharing some gear, maybe not.

    #1715509
    Derek Goffin
    Member

    @derekoak

    Locale: North of England

    Like Katherina said mostly what is being said is "I do not want to", or "It didnt work when I tried it", or on Backpackinglight! "The difference in weight is too small"
    After sharing shelter, sharing quilt/top bag weight saves a lot of weight especially in winter, if you decide to do it. In summer we share a tiny cooking system just Ok for 2 lighter than nearly everyones, (104 grams plus spoons and matches 140 grams all in. http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/forummessages/mps/UTN/22261/dt/4/URN/5/srchdte/0/cp/50/v/8/sp/ ). Its a cup of tea each, a shared cooked meal made up with a maximum of 500ml of hot water per boil and repeat as needed. It takes more time but we both eat together. Anyone who wants speed will not be using meths or hexamine anyway Some people do make it work, so it can be done. If you do not want to thats fine.

    #1715517
    Kattt
    BPL Member

    @kattt

    No, I don't think it is, and I hope that came through in my posts. Neither is carrying a 15 lbs base weight, yet we challege each other, and that is all that I am doing here. Not trying to push buttons, and again, I carry my own gear and in general like to be very independent. Just challenging the "won't go there".

    #1715541
    W I S N E R !
    Spectator

    @xnomanx

    It's not at all about "won't go there" for me. More of just not really needing to most of the time. But I've got nothing against sharing if it's warranted, like carrying one big shelter for two people in stormy weather- much more fun hanging out together than being isolated in single tents.
    Cooking, I've always done my own thing though, mainly because I've been vegan/vegetarian off and on for a long time; I often don't eat what everyone else does.

    I don't want to come across as saying it's something I don't or won't do. Most of the time there's just no real advantage to it with the people I go out with.

    #1715551
    Diana Vann
    BPL Member

    @dianav

    Locale: Wandering

    I agree that "not sharing is not a bad thing."

    The vast majority of my trips are solo trips. And some trips I take are with people who are either "walking their own walk," or are previously mostly unknown to me (at least from a standpoint of how well we will mesh as trip-mates). In those scenarios, I carry everything I need to be self-sufficient.

    I value being able to do both. I like the solitude of a solo trip. And it's confidence building, even when other adventurers are along, to know that you can take care of yourself. I also like the camaraderie of a shared trip (shared trips have never been for getting out overnight–they are typically 2-6 weeks in duration). And for riskier trips (for example, along the outer coast of Alaska, camping and hiking on surf-exposed islands where the population of Brown Bears far exceeds the population of humans), I'm really happy to be on a shared trip.

    #1715613
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    I'd have to agree with Craig – on food that is.

    Anytime a person has a restricted diet it makes it so much easier to plan your own food. I get emails often with questions on how to do group meals when there are people with special needs. The answer I give is you DON'T! You do separate meals! It is easier and no one goes hungry or gets sick!

    I don't eat anything with artificial coloring (I haven't in years – it is the major trigger for my migraines) and I eat lower sodium. I also don't eat much meat. And then say I hike with a couple of the guys and they eat a steady diet of bright red food and jerky sticks. Noooo thank you. But then neither do they have any desire to eat lentils for dinner without a bunch o' salt added ;-)

    Makes for happier hiking to say the least. Food is very personal – at least to many (and I swear nearly everyone I hike with has some special needs).

    #1715619
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    When I did the BPL Wyoming trip last year, part of the trip was 'mandated' sharing. We had one shelter for all of us – a GoLite Shangri-La. One person carried the shelter, another the poles. We had one cookset – one person carried it, and many of us carried a canister of fuel. We all carried group meals. One person carried the Aqua Mira. We had only two maps, I think.

    And this was a trip where pretty much none of us had ever met any of the other members of the group until the day before the adventure.

    I don't know if we saved any weight, probably a little, but much more than that the sharing made us feel more like a common group instead of just a loose gathering of individuals. There was a greater sense of camaraderie. I really enjoyed it, and thinking back on it, I'm not sure why I don't do it more often.

    #1715622
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    Years ago I was leading a group backpack trip with a central commissary. In advance, each participant sent me a check for one share of food cost, plus personal information. For example, I needed to know if they had any food allergies. I got the whole group together with no claimed allergies and we went.

    When we got to the first campsite and tents were up, I got some volunteers to help me cook the evening meal. One guy asked me what we were having to eat.

    "Shrimp Gumbo."

    That guy yelped, because he was allergic to shrimp. He never told me of that allergy since he never expected to see shrimp on a backpack trip. So…

    We cooked up all of the rice and vegetable ingredients, minus the shrimp, and he got one share of that. Then we added the shrimp, gave it another few minutes of simmer, and then everybody else got their share.

    The other case was when I led another group trip, and one person sent me her check with a note that she did not eat any red meat, and that included beef and pork. However poultry and fish were OK.

    I planned the entire four-day trip without any red meat, and that was for breakfasts and dinners, since each participant brought lunches. On the first day on the trail, we stopped for lunch, and this same person hauled out a monster salami. She started slicing off pieces and wolfing them down. I told her that I needed to talk to her in private, so we walked 50 feet away, and I asked her about the note about the no red meat, and what was this salami?

    She said that sometimes she just had this craving for red meat. ( ! )

    –B.G.–

    #1715623
    lynda schroeder
    Member

    @lyndasch15

    As someone with dietary restrictions, I prefer to pack and carry my own food. I have total control of what I eat and how much I eat, and how much I carry.

    A few years ago, I went with a Venture Crew to Isle Royale as a female leader. I let the leader organizing the trip know I had diet restrictions, and I would buy and pack my own food. Upon arrival to the island, we decided to divide up the food. They planned very heavy food, and I felt badly. I had a pound and a half per day for six days=nine pounds. I took another five pounds of their food. (so much for control)

    I am glad I took my own. I had better provisions.

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