Kooka Bay

[Robert Carver]

I had read on this forum before that Lightheart sourced some of their production to China.

[Jon Foro]

"Bender/=amazon. Amazon is a stupid comparison."

No, it isn't (though your point stands: "Don't shop with someone with a documented, terrible record. Duh."). The nut of it is that people won't buy your stuff if you treat them badly, regardless of scale. In 1995, there weren't tens of millions of people lining up to send money through Internet tubes, and justifiably so. Amazon built trust, and consequently its business–all the infrastructure came after. The secondary point is that people seem to want him to succeed, and they're mystified why he seems determined to drive them away. It seems insane.

"I had read on this forum before that Lightheart sourced some of their production to China."

Their standard Solo tents, I think. Any custom orders are produced here.

[Robert Perkins]

This is amazing that this kind of customer service is still happening with Kookabay. I gave him a second chance last year on a pad, and did receive a pad, but in the process of Benders poor communication skills and my impatience I got a pad that was 'overkill' for what I needed in weight and r-value. I sold it off and picked up a Synmat UL7 and haven't looked back. If it were me, I would get my money refunded and move on to a different pad, there are many better options now, for less money, IMO.

Kooka Bay has been the only 'cottage' manf. that I have had this problem with. I have had SUPERB customer service from MLD, Z-Packs, and Zimmer Built Packs, so the excuse of being a one-man shop doesn't 'wash' with me!

"And yes, this is him intentionally treating his customers poorly. Even the busiest people on earth can send 20 emails a day. These threads are a result of him choosing not to respond to emails." Kyle, I agree with this sentiment %100!

[Michael L]

"No, it isn't (though your point stands: "Don't shop with someone with a documented, terrible record. Duh."). The nut of it is that people won't buy your stuff if you treat them badly, regardless of scale. In 1995, there weren't tens of millions of people lining up to send money through Internet tubes, and justifiably so. Amazon built trust, and consequently its business–all the infrastructure came after. "

I guess we will have to disagree. One is a manufacturer. The other is a reseller. One is a one man job that is secondary to his education. The other even at the beginning was started by a hedge fund manager and had employees and did 1/2 million dollars in its first year.

About the only thing in common is that they use the Internet to sell stuff

[Dirk Rabdau]

Well, to turn this on the head. Let's compare Amazon to the treatment I got to the folks from Trail Designs. I bought something from Amazon. I received it in a couple of days (*NICE*). And I got an automated email a couple of weeks later asking me to "rate" my purchasing experience on their website.

The Trail Designs folks took it several steps further. I went to their website and ordered a sidewinder. On the order form, I mentioned I enjoyed the Caldera Cone. I received an email from the owners thanking me for the repeat business and asking some specific questions on how I thought the Caldera Cone could be improved. We proceeded to exchange several emails. I shared my experiences and they shared some of their product ideas, discussed proposed design changes and generally made me feel that my opinion is valued. They were genuinely interested in my feedback. Several days later I received the Sidewinder in the mail, as promised.

Thus, I would like Amazon.com to be more like Trail Designs…

Rather than comparing the small guy to Amazon.com, perhaps it would be more accurate to state that consumers have heightened expectations when it comes to customer service because of the customer-friendly efforts of Amazon.com / Apple / and other retailers. Thus, companies that ignore customer satisfaction and communication do so at their own peril.

[Jon Foro]

I guess we will have to disagree … About the only thing in common is that they use the Internet to sell stuff."

We're just talking about different things. What they have in common is that they both manage direct relationships with customers, and one seems to value those relationships much more than the other (this may not be literally true, but that's the effect). Here, size doesn't matter: TD and LightHeart take advantage of their cottage-scale to create personalized transactions and happy customers.

[John Vance]

I have a pad and pillow from him that I like and the quality is great, but the process of purchasing leaves a bit to be desired. I wanted another pad from him this past year but after multiple emails and no response, I bought an Exped ul7 and just recently a Neo All Season.

This may be a situation where the "bigger" boys may fill a niche that the cottage guy isn't, namely customer service and product availability.

With the Exped UL down mat coming and the AllSeason here, Kookabay sales may slow to the point that there is time for email communication. In tha mean time, I have a 24"x60"x3.5" R6 pad I might part with if someone can't wait.

[Jim Colten]

True, the Kookabay purchase experience is poor these days. True, folks like Zpacks and Tarptent are at the other end of that spectrum. I enjoy using products from all of them.

But, having decided that I wanted a not too heavy and somewhat custom DAM well in advance of when I needed it (end of last winter) and also having read tales of slow response from Kookabay I simply started the purchase process in early summer.

Waiting was frustrating, slow response to contacts was too. But I ended up with a 24oz 24×72 R9 DAM well before winter. It was simply a matter of recognizing the facts of the situation I was gonna have to deal with and accounting for them in my planning.

So yes, Kooka is not the place for impulse purchases. But some things are worth waiting for. I can only hope that he can get his act together so more gear geeks have the pleasure of using his products.

BTW, the purchase process was not nearly as frustrating as this snow drought we're experiencing!

[Nick Gatel]

I bought a 1 oz pillow last year, but it was in stock.

Here is the problem with the start-up cottage manufacturers. They can design and construct a good product, but they do not know how to run a business. Some educate themselves before or immediately after, and others learn the hard way, thought the real-world process of hard knocks. Longevity depends upon good customer service at a minimum, and great for long term success. And this customer service must extend beyond the purchase experience to include after sales support. Also you cannot order a product if it is not in stock, such as Gossamer Gear. Some companies do a good job during the ordering process, drop out of sight, but deliver on time. So here is my experience and I will rank them performance and then sub-ranked by groups.

TOP TIER
1. McHale, on-going communication every step of the way. The best of the best.
2. ZPacks, ongoing communication… some products in stock.
3. Tim Marshall, ongoing communication.

SECOND TIER
1. Tarp Tents, in stock and good communication.
2. Gossamer Gear, in stock and good communication.
3. ULA (Frankel era), most in stock, out of stock delivered on time.

THIRD TIER
1. Nunatak, custom built, good ordering experience, on time with little communication.
2. MLD, some in stock, custom built good ordering, on time with little communication.
3. Six Moons, some in stock, custom built good ordering, on time with little communication.

Good personal buying experience with all above. Also with some of them I indicated I was in no hurry. Those companies that have a reputation of poor communication and late delivery I do not do business with. I can get a comparable product from someone else… and if it costs a little more, the service is worth the additional expense.

[Franco Darioli]

Apple

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-13/apple-opens-suppliers-doors-to-labor-group-after-foxconn-worker-suicides.html
"Apple also discovered at least 90 factories with records showing workers were exceeding its maximum of 60 hours a week and at least one day of rest per seven days of work. The company found violations of anti-discrimination rules for workers who were pregnant or had hepatitis B. Apple said it made the suppliers end the discriminatory screenings. "

(Apple getes its bits from about 156 factories…)

,Amazon :

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917,0,7937001,full.story

So there is a cost attached to that "love"

Would you work like that if you had a choice ?

This has really nothing to do with Bender .
My point is that if we take into consideration how we get those shiny toys and cheap prices from those big guys, we may make some allowances for the little guys…
Franco
Franco

[Jason Elsworth]

I personally had a good experience with Kooka Bay. However, I was prepared to make some allowances for him being a one man band. I do agree though that he could be better at answering emails. Ben at Goosefeet is also a one man operation, but I have found his cutomer servcie to be much better. Generally, with one recent exception, I have had good experiences dealing with the Cottage Industry and I prefer to buy from them, as opposed to larger companies where possible.

Although I haven't purchased from them I have been very impressed at how Katabatic Gear have had a high quality product, generally in stock, and offered, by most accounts, excellent customer service.

[Ron D]

My personal experience with Kooka Bay has been excellent but I can understand the frustration of others with poor communication. But I'd also keep it in perspective, Bender makes an excellent product, he's willing to customize and some products like his Apex insulated mat are unique. You may have a short period of frustration up front but to me it's worth it to have a key part of my sleeping system comfortable, dependable and relatively lightweight for years. It's short term vs long term gratification.
Ron

[Nick Gatel]

Part of my job is helping organizations put processes in place to deliver outstanding customer experiences.

In most retail businesses Completely Satisfied customers become advocates of the retailer. And in many segments the customer loyalty (repurchase rate) can be as high as 90%.

Very Satisfied and Satisfied customer retention rates drop to around 10%. How can that be, you might ask? Because these two types of customers are telling you that you met their minimum expectations, and they are easily switched to a competitor.

So instead of customers giving the company some 'slack,' the companies better wake up and provide outstanding service if they want to remain viable over the long haul.

And now you know why I rave about a couple of companies… their product AND service are outstanding.

[Jon Foro]

"My point is that if we take into consideration how we get those shiny toys and cheap prices from those big guys, we may make some allowances for the little guys…"

Of course. I don't think anyone (or many) here expects the same prices, speed, and convenience that Apple/Amazon/Wal-Mart al scale allows. In dealing cottage, allowances are built-in. But what one may reasonably expect is an e-mail explaining why delivery may be late, especially if money has traded hands.

[John Thompson]

Guys,

We've gotten WAY off topic. Here's the situation. I sent an inquiry to Bender about making an air-mat to my specifications and he promptly responded with details, costs, and lead time. I promptly remitted money which was delivered…the delivery method of the money is of no consequence and neither is the size of his operation…the money has been delivered…period.

I have requested a refund directly from Bender because of his failure to deliver ANYTHING (not even a response). Although it may sound uncaring and unsympathetic I don't give a crap about comparisons to Amazon, Apple, or anything else, either…that has nothing at all to do with this situation.

He has the money and I have nothing.

[Ben H.]

It sounds like some of you have a good relationship with Bender… if you do, you should let him know about this thread. He is really skirting on the edge of destroying his business and that would be shame because as I understand it, he has a great product. Read the POE customer relations thread and see how viral these things can get. In this day and age, customer service is very important, because bad customer service experiences can get easily communicated to potential buyers. I certainly had been planning on purchasing a kookabay pad when my economics made sense, but based on this thread I will hold off until bender gets things in order. Many people have said he is a good guy, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he just got overwhelmed. But he has to make things right before I will ever consider buying a pad from him.

[John Thompson]

Folks,

Just an update on my attempt to purchase an air mattress from the elusive Bender…

I've emailed him repeatedly both through his contact page and directly at [email protected] and I've received nothing…not so much as a peep.

I have repeatedly asked for either the product for which I paid or a refund. I have received neither. Now that I own a new Thermarest Neo-air, I really don't need anything but a refund from this guy.

Since Bender is a life member here at Backpackinglight, maybe he'll read this sad tale and honor his part of the bargain in some way…

This same thing happened to me with Big Sky a few years ago…although I finally got a refund after a few months of excuses…

I guess all of this just means I'm a sucker…but you don't need to be.

[mike curiak]

I'm glad I checked in here, though I didn't expect all of the OT bickering.

I ordered and paid for a Kooka pad back in October. Bender told me it'd be 7-8 weeks.

After ~10 weeks I sent an email and contact form through his site. No response to either. Figured it was the holidays and I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

Last week I tried to contact him again, still with no response. Can't think of a reason to give him the benefit of the doubt after 4 months with zero communication and no pad to show for it.

I own and run a small business and I understand that things can spiral out of control quickly. I don't expect him to perform miracles or ship product if he's somehow busted up. And that's what I came here looking for–some tale of woe that would explain his lack of response.

Has anyone actually spoken to him or heard from him to know that he's alive/OK?

[Nick Gatel]

He hasn't posted here in over 3 months. Looks like PayPal shut down his shopping cart too. Bad news for those you paid for items and did not receive them.

[david]

That's a real shame.
It's events like these that does make me reluctant at times to order a product from these kinds of outfits (Though I was lucky enough to get a Kooka Bay pad).

One sentence could go a long way…

[Travis Butler]

Anyone ever heard of the name Matt Chester? Sure is similar. Good luck to those that have already ordered from him. Hope you get your issue resolved.

I try my best to support small shops. Revelate Gear, wheels from Mr. Curiak up above, Tee Wa quilts, bike frame from a local guy…but it's always a risk for me. I've almost always been totally satisfied with the product and will continue to support small shops but it IS a risk with my hard earned cash.

[John Thompson]

Well, I know his real name now (though it seems that he doesn't have a phone) and it sounds like there was some intentional theft since he's done this to other people and did it BEFORE emailing me telling me about this wonderful bit of vapor-ware he could make me. I called Paypal to tell them about this guy so, at least it sounds like he can't do this to other folks. Now I have to go through my credit card company to stop payment since I'm outside the (45) day PayPal window.

Misery loves company (though I really wish that none of this had happened to anyone else). The guy doesn't seem to care about the only thing that really matters when you come right to the crux of things…his word.

Sorry for the sermon, folks…

[John Vance]

Bummer for all involved….

[Bob Bankhead]

Ever bother to consider he may have died? With a one man business, there's no one to pick up the slack.

It's only one of many possibile reasons for the lack of contact. The internet is limited to earthly addresses.

[Kier Selinsky]

Big time bummer… I was gonna finally order some pillows from him. For what it's worth, I can only imagine something's gone quite wrong if not physically then at least emotionally/stress. I've had a few offline conversations with him and even had his home address at one point (we used to be practically neighbors), so he really didn't strike me as the type to cut and run like this. I never met with him face to face, but this is really surprising.

…and no, don't ask for his address. I already checked and I don't have it anymore.

[Author]

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