Sep 27, 2006 at 1:25 am #1219720
Companion forum thread to:Sep 27, 2006 at 9:36 am #1363743
Excellent article Roger, and I might add that I enjoy all your stove articles and consider you one of the foremost authorities on the subject. I mentioned on this site a while back that wouldn’t it be nice if a company such as Coleman, MSR, Snowpeak or Primus would design a remote canister stove with a smaller lighter weight burner and pot stand. They are just so much easier to use with a windscreen which I feel is essential with most backpacking stoves. Untill the stove companies design such a thing we have the option to modify our existing stoves as illustrated in your aritcle. ThanksSep 27, 2006 at 4:36 pm #1363772
@sharaldsLocale: Gallatin Range
Backpacking stove companies spend boku dollars on R&D and there’s hardly a stove out there that can claim these weights.
Obviously there are the safety concerns, such as the braided metal tubes as mentioned in the article that don’t allow them to use some of the less-durable materials. But I often wonder if a lot of it isn’t that the industry simply doesn’t see “a few ounces” as being important.
Are we, as the lightweight set going to look back on these conversations and low-budget lab tests with I-told-you-so looks on our faces a decade or two from now?
My compliments to Roger, Bill, Mike and Tony for not only their ingenuity but for their precision and craftsmanship as well.Sep 27, 2006 at 10:39 pm #1363786
I would like to give my thanks to Bill, Mike and Tony for their assistance with this article. Without their many helpful replies to my many questions, I could not have written this.
Roger CaffinSep 28, 2006 at 9:23 pm #1363861
@tbeasleyLocale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Great article Roger, it has given me some ideas to make my Pocket Rocket even lighter, I like Bill’s “the Son of Balrog” Ti leg/pot support design, When I sort out a few problems my final version will be made of mostly Ti. I am aimimg to get the stove under 100g. Maybe I can call my stove “The Daughter of Mt Doom”.
Tony BeasleyFeb 13, 2008 at 6:39 pm #1420521
I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on modifying a Burton Remote Canister Stove Stand like the MSR Pocket Rocket in the artical. I'm hesitatent to modify my Crux that way but I'd love to add the pre-heater tube to a converter for it to take remote canisters (and pay the slight weight penalty vs. doing something like the Pocket rocket).Feb 14, 2008 at 1:39 am #1420545
> Burton Remote Canister Stove Stand
Um … What?
Do you mean the Brunton Vapor AF?
If so, that stove will take an inverted canister as it stands.Feb 14, 2008 at 9:59 am #1420571
No, this: http://www.brunton.com/product.php?id=596 (the Brunton "Canister Stove Stand"). I don't think its quite out yet.
It converts a sit on top canister stoves to a remote one; I think it would be kinda cool to add the pre-heater tube referenced in the artical so you could flip the canister upside down in cold weather.Feb 14, 2008 at 1:57 pm #1420609
Thanks. I have enquired about it.
RogerFeb 14, 2008 at 2:23 pm #1420612
Thanks Roger, thats a big help!Feb 15, 2008 at 11:56 am #1420734
Neat, Markill had something similar recently… glad to see one form a more accesible (to the US) company….Feb 15, 2008 at 1:14 pm #1420750
ya, although the Markill sounds like its a little heavy.
I'm hoping that this one is in the 2-3 oz range.
I dont know though… it says its made with Stainless Steel..
Look forward to hearing whats upJan 24, 2009 at 10:23 pm #1472732
Pulling this one out of the archives.
Roger, regarding your custom connection to allow a powermax canister to run on the windpro…I have the windpro and even with an inverted canister, it gives me issues when temps drop very low (I have complained about this before – I have actually given up on fuel stoves for deep winter) so this adapter may be what I am looking for. I saw the powermax fuel at my local outfitters (they actually have boxes and boxes) and they told me they haven't heard that they will be discontinued anytime soon (good news!). So I want to give this a try. The Fyrestorm Ti they have there is over $200…I'd rather make the adapter. :)
Does the powermax fuel really perform that well to be worth doing this?
Have you been using the adapter?
If so, how is it holding up?
Are all the "new" powermax cartridges the same, or do you still notice the 2mm difference you mentioned in the article?
Any help would be great.
I'm surprised there wasn't more interest in this adapter (beautiful job by the way) – if the powermax fuel really does work as well as everyone says, it seems this is the answer to all my problems! ;)
Quesion # 2:
The reason the mainstream manufacturers use that heavy braid-covered hose (which is more commonly used for fuel-lines in cars) is probably that they can't find anything else lighter which is readily available and affordable (and neither can I)
Are there any strength or heat issues with using aluminum braided lines? I haven't checked size availability or anything, but I've see them on the wall at the local bike shop for about $20.Jan 25, 2009 at 12:08 am #1472744
> they told me they haven't heard that they [Powermax canisters] will be discontinued anytime soon
This is my understanding too. Coleman know there are many of these stoves out there and that owners really love them, so Coleman has said they feel some responsibility on them to maintain the fuel supply.
Now, cold weather operation. The three gases used have boiling points as follows:
n-butane: -0.5 C
isobutane: -12 C
propane: -42 C
If it is too cold for one of the gases to boil, then any canister with that gas in it is going to have a problem. Obviously straight propane would be the best gas to use, but in hot weather the pressure inside the Powermax and screw-thread canisters would be too high for safety – see my article on exploding canisters. (That said, you can buy small propane canisters, but they have a different fitting and are heavier.)
So how well do the various gas mixes perform?
This shows how the internal pressures vary. (The curve has appeared in some of my other articles and also in the FAQ I maintain.)
Key point: once the pressure drops below 1 atmosphere or 14 psia, the canister STOPS working. And this is a function of temperature.
You can clearly see that the 60%n-butane/40%propane in the Powermax and the 70%isobutane/30% propane in the Kovea canisters give the best cold weather performance.
> Have you been using the adapter?
I have carried it on some shoulder-season trips when I was not sure about the weather. And it *was* useful when the evening temperature dropped below freezing a couple of times. I used my Snow Peak GST-100 stove on it.
> Are all the "new" powermax cartridges the same, or do you still notice the
> 2mm difference you mentioned in the article?
The change in profile of the Lindal valve fitting seems to be permanent. It is due to a change in the canister crimping machine.
> Are there any strength or heat issues with using aluminum braided lines?
Well, there shouldn't be. After all, the hose is not meant to get very warm, let alone hot. But the metal braid is vital to protect the plastic hose inside and to prevent it coming adrift at the ends as well.
But I have not seen the stuff you are referring to, so I have no idea whether it might be suitable or not. I don't even know whether it could be made gas-tight.
CheersJan 26, 2009 at 10:17 am #1472998
Roger, thanks for the reply. I've spent the last day or two re-reading all the stove articles. Great info.
I picked up a few powermax canisters from my local shop, but they only had the 300g containers. I'm not sure where to get the smaller ones – but the hunt has just begun!
I may hold off an making the adapter as an extreme just went on sale in the gear forum. If all goes well, it will be mine!Jan 26, 2009 at 11:21 am #1473027
@retropumpLocale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
We have been using an inverted canister on the MSR WindPro for around 18 months. The feed cable is long enough to just turn the canister upside down. Although this brings the canister closer to the flame, we have not had a problem with it overheating provided the windscreen is in place. It works great! Would love to make it lighter, but it looks too fiddly and technical for me.Jan 26, 2009 at 3:08 pm #1473090
The Windpro is great. I actually love mine. But, it fails to put out sufficient heat when the temperatures drops below about -20*C. It can literally take an hours to melt snow. Sometimes, I feel like the stove is equivalent to a simple candle. This winter I have been using a bushbuddy, but my trips have been limited to 2 days. It can be a bit of a pain to heat water during the day for lunch, not so much for evening as I just sit around anyway. I'm really hoping that the extreme will solve my issues.Jan 26, 2009 at 3:20 pm #1473092
> it fails to put out sufficient heat when the temperatures drops below about -20*C. It
> can literally take an hours to melt snow.
Check the graph I posted and what sort of canister you were using. It sounds as though it was one of the less cold-suited ones. You have two options:
1) Use a canister more suited to the cold (more propane and iso-butane instead of n-butane)
2) Warm up the canister.
I recommend doing both.
Remember: the canisters are rated to 50 C; while you will get an ouch reflex when you touch something over 40 C. As long asd you can happily touch the canister it is safe.
A bit of liquid water poured into the concave base of the canister is a good start. A little bit of radiation from the stove is also good, provided you monitor the temperature.
CheersJan 26, 2009 at 4:49 pm #1473123
I've tried a number of different approaches. The best to date is spilling some water from the pot onto the canister. But the effect doesn't last long. Warming the canister before lighting is good for a bit, but it quickly cools. The wood fire option is my favorite right now, but it takes a long time and requires constant attention – however, you save some major weight with this technique. Deal is done on the xtreme stove now anyway – will let you know how it performs.
Thanks for the help.
SteveFeb 23, 2009 at 1:13 pm #1480110
Well, performance of the xtreme is much better then the windpro, but it took 153 grams of fuel to turn snow into 4 liters of boiling water. That can't be right…can it? I would pour some of the hot water onto the canister but the benefit didn't seem logical as I would then have to add more snow to the pot which meant opening the lid and letting heat out. I'm fashioning a CCF sleeve for the canister with high hopes. Roger, in your picture, it shows you have the powermax canister sitting directly on the snow, is that how you run your stove? or was that just for the photo.Jan 1, 2010 at 9:40 pm #1558694
@hikin_jimLocale: Orange County, CA, USA
Did you ever verify that 153g number? That sounds awfully high.
HJJan 2, 2010 at 1:37 am #1558716
Sorry Steve – missed your Q.
153 g for 4 L of water from snow? A bit high, but let's see.
Assume really cold weather. Then to heat the snow and melt it takes about as much energy again as to bring water to the boil. So if you normally use about 12.5 g/L for 20 – 100 C, you would expect to use about 30 g per L for the snow. For 4 L that is 120 g. Which is why many of us go to considerable lengths to find running water under the snow!
Your 153 g is a bit high: it suggests you were running rather inefficiently. Maybe you had the stove really cranked up on a not-very-wide pot? Lid on? Good windscreen around? But you are not 'out of sight'.
As far as a CCF sleeve for the canister goes – Forget It! Totally pointless. Far, far better is to leave the canister slightly exposed to the radiant heat from the flame so the canister warms up a LITTLE bit. Monitor it with your hand!!! 'Cool' is nice.
Yes, I leave the canister on the snow if the night is not too cold – down to -5 C or a bit lower. If it gets colder than that I might stick something under it – just to get it slightly off the snow. I rely on the radiation warming.
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