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Problem with deadmen


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  • #1267873
    Randy Nelson
    BPL Member

    @rlnunix

    Locale: Rockies

    Contrary to the thread title, this is not about zombies.

    I went out this weekend to try my hand at winter camping but ran into a problem. The snow in the area I was in was sugar snow. I setup my tarp and used stakes in a deadman fashion. After 2 hours the snow had not setup at all and the stakes pulled right out. Probably 30 minutes to go until dark so I packed up and headed home. I wasn't going to risk snowing collapsing the tarp or the winds picking up and it ending up in Kansas.

    I went back the next morning and checked the locations where the deadmen were. Completely said up. Pretty much exactly as it says in Mike and Allen's book. I could have brought along something bigger to bury and that may have been enough but I'm not sure.

    Any suggestions for this kind of snow? I don't plan on normally getting to camp 5 hours early to give the snow that long to setup. My poles are used with the tarp so those aren't an option. There was 3 feet of snow on the ground so any natural materials were hidden. And I don't think even those parachute things would have helped with the snow so loose. Any knowledge provided on this would be most appreciated. Thanks.

    #1685321
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    Add some water?

    #1685322
    David Chenault
    BPL Member

    @davec

    Locale: Queen City, MT

    If it's real cold, pouring water and/or peeing on the anchor will set it up in a hurry. Seriously. Using big deadmen helps too (a ski or branch buried sidways).

    #1685323
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    Use some SMC aluminum snow stakes, drive them in, and then stomp some snow around them. If you put enough energy into it, little bits of the dry snow will melt and then re-freeze into the holes on the stakes. If that still is not enough, dribble a couple of spoons of water on each one, and let that freeze in.

    –B.G.–

    #1685342
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    "Using big deadmen helps too (a ski or branch buried sidways)"

    Snowshoes too.

    #1685351
    Tad Englund
    BPL Member

    @bestbuilder

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    Randy, I think the problem might have been the temperature of the snow, it many places in the Rockies the day time temps were unseasonably warm this last weekend.
    If it was warm, the snow might have never set up until the temp. drops, usually after the sun goes down. When you went back in the morning, yes it was set up because of the colder overnight temps. It might have worked if you had waited until after dark.
    Of course this is all just conjecture, I wasn't there, but just trying to help.

    #1685385
    James Marco
    BPL Member

    @jamesdmarco

    Locale: Finger Lakes

    Yeah, that can happen. Often with deeper snow it will layer out. Colder below will keep it from sintering as quickly. If the snow continues, you can build a deep layer of heavy, non-sticky snow that is too cold to sinter. The upper layers can sinter a lot quicker. You can end up with layers of densly packed snow, followed by layers of loose granular like snow. Wetting the snow often helps. Or, simply exposing it to the outside air. Snow is a good insulator. Changing locations to a closed in area, or an open area may help.

    Anyway, stakes can fail, often these simply do not have enough bite. I have seen it so granular, even a 6" parachute will pull loose. Under these conditions, a deadman is your only good choice. Often wetting the snow will only create a ball of ice that has no bite on the surrounding snow, just too granular. It really depends on conditions, as does most of winter camping. (I do not do winter camp anymore, getting too old for that stuff…)

    #1685839
    Randy Nelson
    BPL Member

    @rlnunix

    Locale: Rockies

    Thanks for all the input. I like Bob's suggestion for the snow stakes but I may make some even longer ones for these conditions. I happen to be going to the aluminum extrusion place tomorrow for something else and will check out what they have that would work. I usually buy the scraps as they are a lot cheaper and no cutting charge. I'm sure I'll find something that will work.

    #1685882
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    Oh, you can get into all kinds of trouble at an aluminum extrusion place. Get some aluminum pickets maybe 24" long, then drill a dozen holes in each end (so that the snow and ice has something to freeze into). If you use those in the field, make sure that you have a good extraction tool. That might mean a metal shovel or a metal ice axe.

    –B.G.–

    #1685902
    Stephen Barber
    BPL Member

    @grampa

    Locale: SoCal

    Deadmen tell no tales….

    Oh wait – now we have CSI !!!

    #1685908
    Tad Englund
    BPL Member

    @bestbuilder

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    Randy, search some of the old articles and forums, there are a few on snow stake making (some with Ti, but you can use the pattern). It might help?

    #1685911
    Elliott Wolin
    BPL Member

    @ewolin

    Locale: Hampton Roads, Virginia

    Or make mini snow anchors or snow flukes, like those used in glacier travel and crevasse rescue. Like the picture below, but smaller, lighter, and skip the cable.

    Snow fluke

    Get some lightweight but fairly stiff sheet aluminum (I used 6061-T6 because I had some, I think it was 1/32 inch but I don't recall for sure), cut pieces out in the appropriate shape (shear, snips or saw), punch a lot of big holes in them, then bend vertically down the middle slightly to make little kites.

    I made a set in the 1970's that I still use on occasion. I can post a picture of the real thing if anyone wants it.

    #1685977
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    > the old articles and forums, there are a few on snow stake making (some with Ti,

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/make_your_own_gear_titanium_snow_stakes.html

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/myog_ti_snow_stakes_part_2.html

    And Ti snow stakes will also go into icy ground like you wouldn't believe.

    Cheers

    #1686046
    Randy Nelson
    BPL Member

    @rlnunix

    Locale: Rockies

    Thanks guys! Great info. BTW, what kind of place do you look for to find titanium for sale locally? I was able to google the extrusion place but searching for titanium in Denver isn't much use.

    #1686808
    nanook ofthenorth
    BPL Member

    @nanookofthenorth

    Just stomp it down, if its super cold and sugur snow and wont set up just dig deeper. That and skis/snowshoes/poles/axes/packs/trees/sticks as deadmen and I've never had any issues. That said I also dont tarp in the winter though.

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