M50 TopBag Finished

[BlackHatGuy]

"which is why it makes sense to let people on a make your own gear forum know how easy and cheap it is to make down and synthetic quilts"

I agree. Each time I hear it, and I do know that it's true, gets me that much closer to trying it myself some day!

[Daryl and Daryl]

Hmmmm,

Comments got me thinking. Sorry for the topic drift but I just got clear on what motivates me to make my own gear sometimes.

When I know exactly what I want and someone has that thing exactly (or pretty close) then I'll probably buy it.

I'll try to make my own gear if I want to experiment or if I can't find what I want already made up.

I definitely don't make my own gear to save money. My MYOG hobby has cost me much much more than purchasing new gear ever would…..and I'm not even counting the value of my labor.

[Josh Leavitt]

Paul is right.

The materials to build such a quilt would only cost you $140 dollars, depending on where you got them, and some time. But you know how it is, you give something a cool name, lay your hands on it, and then you have to charge outrageous prices for it.

[BlackHatGuy]

Interesting comment Josh.

But there is a cost/benefit relationship here, depending on how much you value time (your's or someone else's). So if the $400 quilt only costs $140 in materials, that leaves $260 in labor. I have no idea how long it takes to make such a quilt. If it's 10 hours, then you're only talking $26 an hour – not that much for such a unique hand-made item. If it's only 5 hours, now you're talking $52 an hour. A very fair price for the labor of a true craftsman, in my opinion. (After all, that's less than a plumber, and I don't have to experience any butt cracks while s/he's working!).

So, unless it takes far less than 5 hours to make such a quilt (to the level of craftsmanship that Javan or Tom or Tim or Mike or others make them), then I don't consider the price outrageous at all, and I'm happy to pay it. If it takes closer to 10 hours to make such a quilt, then I see the price as an absolute bargain. If it only takes an hour or two, then I'm in the wrong business. ;-)

[Jerry Adams]

and there are all sorts of other costs – tools, building, inventory, sometimes you'll ship something but they won't pay you for it, you have to prototype it and test it ahead of time which takes more labor and material costs, vacation time, heath insurance,…

I don't think gear manufacturers are getting rich, it's a tough business

I don't feel bad about paying seemingly high prices for good gear

I'd rather pay more for quality gear that I'm happy with for a long time

[Jamie Shortt]

My thought on the real cost.

My experience with MYOG would suggest $140+10 hours does not equal anything like a top bag like Matt's. I hate to admit the time and effort put into the quilt I showed and I have been sewing on and off for over 20 years. I spent close to 8-10 hours on the design alone and its a simple quilt. I would guess I finished the quilt in about 12-16 additional hours. I did take my time and did not make any mistakes. I am fairly sure I could do the next one in about 10 hours. I baffled quilt probably adds 4 hours for me.

Now if you buy a kit and go from existing instructions things can go alot faster. i.e. you cut out the design phase, sourcing phase, etc. I will say the existing instructions for making quilts are sparce. The ones that thru-hiker links to use the "fill the down in a tent method". I don't even want to think about the cleaning time for that. I have spent countless hours researching instructions methods, dimensions, techniques, etc. This was all done prior to the 8-10 hours of design time I spent on this project.

Things to consider…to reproduce a high end quilts (nunatak, Javan's, or Tim's for example) would require a thru-hiker quilt kit or similar materials. This kit costs $175 including shipping (M90), but would provide equivalent materials that you would get in to $400 bag. You also need to buy thread, cord, small buckles, cord locks, grossgrain, possibly snaps, velcro, etc (expect this to be $10-$20). If you drive this takes time and gas (not factored into above estimates).

Other equipment/items you need to sew a high quality quilt…
sewing machine ($200 one will work)
machine oil
tape measure
yard stick
candle
matches
scale
shop vac
sharpie
chalk
sewing table (could use dining room table)
good quality scissors
seam ripper
straight pins
sewing needle

The entire list will run you I'm guessing roughly $400. But that's not too bad to make your own gear. But you should factor at least some portion of this cost into each project. This stuff wasn't free.

Most people don't nail an item the first time unless they have considered every element of the design to great detail or they are using an existing design and explicit instructions. I would say even then you need to be highly skilled. I think it was Roger that said expect it be be like 6 iterations. So be prepared for some items to not be perfect….i.e. might have to buy materials again. Hidden cost.

When I consider my MYOG items and what went into them I would in no way do it unless I truly enjoyed it. I would buy these items just like I did before I starting making them and never think twice about some skilled craftsmen making $10-20/hour off me.

I am not offering this as discouragement to up and coming MYOGer's. I try to help everyone I can and always try to encourage. I only want folks to consider the real value of those that make hand crafted specialy designed American made products.

Jamie

[Tanner M]

> jerry adams: With the inside out method, when you turn it inside out, it seems like the insulation will be folded over at the edges making it look and feel un-professional.

Yeah, I can see that looking a little lumpy, depending on the amount of insulation and shell material you have in the allowance.

I didn't think I would be able to sew 1/4" or from the edge. Not reliably. So, I did this:

I sewed the insulation to one shell piece. Then I made my sandwich and sewed the shell+insulation to the second shell. I sewed about an inch in. It doesn't really matter. You could try to keep it close to the edge or not. Either way, with this method, the 'insulation seam' will show.

When I sewed the second time around, I didn't worry about capturing any insulation. The insulation is about 1" thick. I sewed between 1/4 and 1/2" from the insulation. This let the seam be on the side, ~halfway up the insulation.

As negatives: (1) I had to sew the perimeter twice, (2) this takes a little re-thinking of your pattern; really, you want the shell a little bigger than the insulation… (3) I now had an extra line of stitches on one side of the quilt.

The extra line doesn't bother me. I put it on the inside (it is black) and don't notice. Mmm, it isn't likely you can get the seam to line up nicely with the 'sandwich seam'. I don't mean to say it can't be done. My inner seam is pretty close but it isn't aligned with millimetric precision.

I think I would have done better to have the insulation down against the dogs rather than up against the foot.

[Tanner M]

Jamie Shortt:

>candle
Over the course of several projects, I have assembled a complete alter. Candle only just don't work for me.

> sewing table (could use dining room table)
I used the table method and transferred it to a bed when I wanted to see it all laid out at once. On the table, I could see the entire width at any point but not the entire length.

I use the soldering iron method of cutting. This is faster than sealing after the fact and I don't have to do anything special with seams.

With either the M90 or M50 types materials, a fine point soldering iron (the cheap pencil kind from anywhere) works fine.

I do it on the table (it has scars going back to the 70's when I did math calcs on paper but with nothing between it and the table).

I use a piece of glass from a large picture frame. You will ruin the glass for this purpose. I taped the corners of the glass to prevent cutting myself. I use a length of 1/2 by 3/4" aluminum angle as a straight edge. The aluminum stock can come from any hardwear [oops] store and can be easily cut. Check the edges for any nicks or burs. It is a pretty good idea to have a place to put the iron so it can warm up and cool down. Make a safe place to put it where it isn't likely to get bumped onto the floor.

The iron will go through taffeta or ripstop. It will cut heavier materials as well. With the thin stuff we are taking about here, there is little smoke [no smoke, really, unless you rumple material]. If the material is rumpled, even a bit, there will be smoke. The material will not catch fire. Well, I ain't laid the iron it it, either, so I don't know about that.

This method works great with straight lines. I can make curves free hand but my hand doesn't trace a perfect arc. It wobbles a bit and makes smoke. I don't end up cutting many curves, really, so I use the iron still.

By smoke, I mean a stream as when a candle is put out. Not a cloud. When this happens, you can smell it. You will not hide what has happened from others. The smell does dissipate. My table is near a door and I can open that if I like. The fume is certainly toxic.

[peter vacco]

you can make optimal heat-cut curves if you first generate a pattern out of cardboard. not corrigated, but mroe of a poster-board type.
poster-board will not suck heat out of the iron as fast as aluminium.
i use it for straight cuts now as well.
it does char a little bit.. but it's no big deal.

" You will not hide what has happened from others. "
that is as true as words can get.

i suspect that when you thermal-cut some types of foam, the resulting fumes can be really quite nasty. not just nasty-in-theory-for-wussies, but noxious bad.

[Tanner M]

Thanks for the tip for curves.
I can see how that would be very helpful.

Along with my other notes, I would add: With thin material, I am sometimes able to cut such a fine edge that it doesn't look bad exposed. I might not want the edge 'out in the open', but if I am making something strictly utilitarian, I don't always feel like I must tuck the edge.

PS – I can see how heat would be drawn out by aluminum. You are right; a good heat is important.

Otherwise, the cut is rough and almost like dotted lines. If I am unsure of the temp, I will test cut a scrap. If I think I have let the iron get too hot, I will run it along the glass a few times before cutting material.

My glass is only 20" or so. I can cut only so far before I have to reposition my material. The iron reheats during this time, I guess. As long as I let it heat up good before I start, I haven't had trouble.

[Author]

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