Freestanding tent recommendations: BD Firstlight???

[patrick walsh]

just love when a simple friendly thread goes this direction ;)

[Rick Dreher]

It looks like BD dropped the Lighthouse when they switched over from Epic to NanoShield. This is the only "Black Diamond Lighthouse" I can find now.

http://www.generousgems.com/p/nautical-jewelry/lighthouse-charms/fancy-lighthouses/dz_p30183.html

The good news: takes remarkably little pack space.

Any experience out there comparing the old and new BD tent fabrics? I'm still curious why they made the switch.

Cheers,

Rick

[Brian Camprini]

Here's a thread where folks were discussing various freestanding tents for treks in Iceland with insane winds and loose soil. Sounds like Big Agnes tents fared well in those conditions:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=24675&skip_to_post=261693

[Steven McAllister]

I'm going to have to agree with Roger. You can't blame the fact that your stakes were pulling out. Stakes are not your only option, freestanding or not.

I had to pitch my Shangri-la in fierce wind on an exposed rocky ridge. It was either that or camp below in a dead forest with widowmakers(falling trees)falling down all around.

In this case I gather up sticks and large rocks and create anchors that held all night in conditions I couldn't stand up in.

I also agree that a freestanding tent would have pulled the stakes out as well, but in the case of the freestanding tent, it could have blown away over a ledge and I could have had no shelter for the night.

I'd take the Shangi-la or like Roger mentions a tunnel tent in these situations.

[David Ure]

The biggest difference between a free standing shelter and one that isn't in those conditions is that the free standing tent doesn't depend on staking for its structure. Of course it would still need to be staked down, but it's structure would not depend on perfect staking, which the SL3 would.

[Greg Mihalik]

"You can't blame the fact that your stakes were pulling out."

The OP was not blaming anything….
"So I know I could've done much better with my site selection…"
"So…all these issues aside, it sure got me thinking about getting a freestanding shelter again."

He is just looking for insight on freestanding tents.
Sheesh…..

[Jason Delso]

David Ure: "The biggest difference between a free standing shelter and one that isn't in those conditions is that the free standing tent doesn't depend on staking for its structure."

I've lost two free-standing tents in wind storms in the Guadalupe Mountains due to pole failure. So for me, staking a free-standing tent is still required for structure in certain conditions. I'm not sure if the OP's wind was quite that severe, though…

[David Ure]

Hey Jason – you are missing my point.

[Jason Delso]

David, I wasn't addressing a point. I was adding filler and noise. ;)

Was your point that you have to stake (mmm… steak…) down any tent, free-standing or no?

[Steven McAllister]

I think what some are pointing out is that in this particular case a freestanding shelter wouldn't helped in sever wind on an exposed ridge.

My experience is that the Shangri-la is very good at deflecting wind, if fastened correctly for the conditions.

I have seen SEVERAL freestanding tumbleweeds caused by people incorrectly staking their shelters down.
If you don't stake a Shangri-la down correctly you could have a miserable night with your shelter collapsing on you acting more like a bivy than a tent. But if you stake down a freestanding shelter incorrectly and end up not being in your shelter during a gust, you could end up with no shelter at all.

If a freestanding shelter looses a couple stakes to the wind, the rest will pull out in no time and because the freestanding shelters tendency to stay up in the wind, will be very good at catching wind and easily fly away.

As I have mentioned many times in this forum, I have seen whole groups of freestanding tents, including gear, end up floating in a nearby river. In this case some of the non-freestanding shelters were blown flat, but still protected the contents. Many of the freestanding shelters ended up with broken poles as well.

Either way, all have to be attached in conditions, whether it be with stakes or the many other options out there.

[Sam Farrington]

Craig,
You have set off another firestorm because of the many frequenters of this site who are wedded to lighter tents – after all, it is BackpackingLIGHT.

Enough pole length for freestanding is going to add weight, no matter how you slice it. And attempts to get around that fact by building around a single pole just reduce strength and stability, producing tents like the Hubba that are great for sheltered conditions, but nothing like the conditions you described, and so make folks even more reluctant to consider freestanding. Worse, freestanding designs haven't improved much since Jansport introduced them over 40 years ago. All in all, no wonder they are not popular, especially here.

Being one of the rare species of freestander, however, I do relate to your hunt for such a tent; thus see the need as you described it, and not as interpreted by revisionists who don't agree that there is any need,or feasibility for what you want.

I once saw a PBS show about some folks designing wings for an airplane that would function on solar power; so the wing had to be incrredibly light, but also strong.
They eventually ran across a design that almost magically met this requirement.
The reasons for this success were not obvious from looking at the frame of the wing structure, but it was obvious that it was much stronger and stabler than the other more conventional designs they considered. This convinced me that there was potentially a design for a freestanding tent frame out there that could be just as magical. It only had to be invented.

To get to the point (finally), you should probably look at the Suolo as earlier suggested. Granted, it is not a 2 person tent; but at 42" depth in the center, is quite large for one. As the quality of carbon poles improves, and they are improving even though it is like waiting for grass to grow, the Suolo would be quite lighter. There are also the new Nemo tents coming out after the first of the year that might merit some looking at. And I would not be surprised to see something better from Easton Mountain Products as they become more familiar with tent design. Were you a smaller person, I would even suggest looking at a Luxe Firefly and considering substituting carbon for its only slightly flexed poles. And the BD tents, of course, if you don't mind havng to crawl into the the thing in the rain, as I mind, to set one up.

As Hilleberg points out, stakes remain essential to anchor the freestanders, although I have used trees, bushes and boulders for this purpose, as I suppose could be used with any tent. This requirement might have frustrated your desire for a solid, stable shelter in the conditions you described; and if that is so, then Roger is right – it simply was not a good place to pitch a tent. Since you were there, you can make that call better than anyone.

[David Ure]

"Was your point that you have to stake (mmm… steak…) down any tent, free-standing or no?"

Yes – but my additional point was that a freestanding tent does not need the stakes to maintain its shape and would likely be easier to set up and maintain its shape in windy conditions with poor soil for stakes. But heavens – stake either down!

[patrick walsh]

Alright already are we ready to talk about other tents yet?

[W I S N E R !]

"Emergency stakes for burying in the sand (or snow):

Poo trowel
Stove base (if you carry one)
Food bags (with food or sand)
Socks filled with sand
Joggers
Plastic bags
Water bottles
Handkerchief as drag chute (or bandanna)
Mug"
______________________________________

Great ideas Roger.
I didn't have many of the items you mentioned, but I must say, shoes and socks, and a mug or cookpot never occurred to me. Good skills to add to the repertoire that I won't forget.

As for the rest of this thread, wow…

One great thing though: I've actually been contacted with great suggestions via PM, one person even offering to let me borrow a shelter to try it.
Thanks everyone.

[David Ure]

Hey Patrick – there have been several suggestions, none from you of course. What would Jesus do?

[W I S N E R !]

While we're now debating designs, I find it interesting how many here are dead-set against the Firstlight/I-Tent "freestanding" (yes, they need stakes too, we all know that), when some of the biggest mountains in the world are being climbed by people carrying them.
Steve House has been all over the Himalaya and Patagonia carrying a Firstlight or I-Tent. I have to trust his judgment.

A pro BD team using the Firstlight at +18,000 ft. in Nepal:

I-Tent on Denali expedition:

Guiding Light (4 man version) on K2:

_________________________________________________________________________________

Sorry, but when pros are using this design all over the world in conditions more severe than anyone on this site will ever see, I'd wager it'll do just fine in a storm at 4,000 feet Joshua Tree National Park…

Flame on.

[W I S N E R !]

N/M…no need to carry on here…

[James holden]

colin haley uses it it … he's the premier US light and fast alpinist of the new generation

on denali … he did the cassin ridge in 17 hrs …

i think there is a bias on this board to certain things … which exists on all forums … just my opinion

[W I S N E R !]

n/m.

why do I keep accidentally posting here…

[W I S N E R !]

I know it goes against the entire spirit of my initial post on this thread, but my interest is perked with the MLD Trailstar as an UL option. Comparatively, the Shangri-La 3 isn't too much heavier, but it is taller and the cut/pitching options of the Trailstar seem more wind-worthy and versatile…

….providing good buried anchors at 10 points, ala Roger Caffin: 2 shoes, 2 socks, my cookpot, 2 stuffsacks, a pair of underwear as a parachute, a t-shirt, and two sand-filled water bladders for good measure.

"$hit, where's all your gear, man…?"

[EndoftheTrail]

Craig:

Nice pics!! But was yours a dry, powdery snow storm? Or a wet, rainy one? Different tools for different occasions. But in any case, given your height, it's a moot point. Worst combo IMO is a single-wall tent that isn't long enough for you to keep your bag away from the walls all around.

[Roger Caffin]

> when pros are using this design all over the world in conditions more severe than anyone on this site will ever see

I wouldn't bet on that …

But note just how deeply some of those tents are dug into the snow – the 'Firstlight at +18,000 ft. in Nepal' is almost inside the snow bank. That sort of digging-in really does help to protect the tent. And also note that they are using their ice axes as anchors!

I will add that when you at 18,000' in Nepal you may be slightly more willing to put up with some serious cramped discomfort during the night. Just being out of the wind can be fantastic! Whether you want to suffer as much at home … hum.

Cheers

[David Ure]

Craig – you will have the same, if not more of an issue setting up the Trailstar.

@Eric – I agree.

[D G]

In my opinion, tall tipis do well in the wind. Most of the surface area that the wind hits is down low, and the top area of a tipi has very little surface area for the wind to hit.

[Dirk Rabdau]

Hey, I don't think there is a bias against freestanding tents – well only in light of the fact that people hear gravitate toward the lightest gear possible, and thus freestanding tents often lose out on the scale. But freestanding tents are terrific, and many times the appropriate choice.

I have a freestanding tent. It works fine. I think we diverged on the tangent that if not staked down, a freestanding tent in the wind is at greater risk of becoming a true piece of multi-use gear – both a tent and a kite. It is often tempting (and I know I've done it), to bypass the stakeout process because they weather is great, the wind is minimal and everything is peachy. Then you wake up at 2:30 and it's howling outside and your tent is being deflected terribly and acting like a sail and attempting to get you airborne (lucky I am heavy enough).

Setting one up in heavy winds without stakes is tough, especially if your gear isn't particularly heavy. Trying to keep the tent taking off on you is a bit of trick. That's all.

Dirk

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