Hogan Goes Mirrorless

[Rick M]

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[Chris Townsend]

Dirk, you can see photos taken with the NEX 5 on my blog: http://www.christownsendoutdoors.com

[Rick Dreher]

Wow, how frustrating. Is it some vestige of the fight against the "gray market" from when the Yen was weaker?

I have my frustrations with Sony, which seemed to lose a good deal of their historical design genius after becoming a content company (music and movies). The content folks lord over the hardware folks to an absurd degree, shackling formats and products alike to protect against counterfeiting and piracy. Whether this specifically extends to still cameras is arguable, but I believe the overarching philosophy has hamstrung the company.

Luckily, we're awash in competing products. I was once a Sonyphile but have mostly divorced myself from them.

Hope your search gets easier!

Rick

[Miguel Arboleda]

Thanks for information, Rick. I'll have a look at the overseas camera models. But really, I shouldn't have to go abroad to buy a camera made in the country I live in.

I think it is a little over the top and in does not reflect the Japan I have experienced over the last 20yrs.

Well, this is a topic best discussed elsewhere. Suffice it to say that my experience has not been a good one in many areas that you seem to have had good experiences with, whereas I've had good experiences in many areas that others seem to have had bad experiences. Having worked in and having a Japanese-Brazilian wife who works in some of the seedier sides of the Japanese economy I've seen and experienced some things that most white western non-Japanese never see. It's ugly. I might be over-reacting here, true, but I have good reason not to trust the motives for Japanese companies and their actions. Just read Arudou Debito, to get a very eye-opening view of what goes on in Japan. You can learn more about him, here.

What caught me off guard yesterday and perhaps influenced my anger, was that I'd never, in the 40 years I've been shopping for camera products here in Japan, had this kind of problem with a camera before. Not once. Even for the old SLR cameras that didn't have on-board menus and such, I was always able to find English manuals. A camera is just a thing, naturally, and I shouldn't let my life get all bent out of shape because of a thing, but surely, Rick, you can't tell me that you don't experience a lot of frustration being a non-Japanese in Japan. If you are telling me that then you surely are living a charmed life here. What's frustrating for me here is that after nearly a year and a half of searching for the best camera for my needs I may have finally found it, only to have it imperfect because of a lack of a multi-languge menu.

[David Ure]

Canon makes a better camera than Sony at each price point ($699 is ridiculous for the Sony), if that makes you feel any better.

[Miguel Arboleda]

Actually, though they are expensive I much prefer Ricoh. Ricoh's engineers must love photography themselves because Ricoh's cameras so obviously understand what serious photographers want. The cameras are a dream to use when it comes to handling and interface. The GXR has a lot of promise if Ricoh can get their head around how to take advantage of the GXR's very unconventional system and offer the best combination of units. I think they are still locked in traditional camera mode and therefore started the GXR with lens units that did little to step above what their GR and GX cameras already offer. Now they have two full-sensor lens units, 50mm and 28mm fixed lenses, that have superb image quality but are limited by their extremely slow contrast focusing. I am waiting for the interchangeable lens unit that is supposed to come out next February. People are speculating that it will either be a M-mount lens unit or a M43 lens mount unit. The GXR has further unconventional possibilities, like being able to attach a projector unit or a dedicated 3-D camera unit. I don't think even Ricoh have fully grasped what the camera is capable of. I do surmise that they must have a lot of unannounced plans for the camera base because the power cable that comes with the camera is unusually large and substantial, so it must be designed to power as-yet unseen, much more powerful units.

And I do love Canon, too. But no one but Sony, right now, makes an interchangeable lens, full sensor, mirrorless compact camera. That's the attraction of the Nex 5.

[Chris Townsend]

Miguel, the Samsung NX10 and NX100 have the same size sensors as the NEX 5. I don't think they're quite as good (the NX10 is noticeably bigger and heavier, the NX100 doesn't have image stabilisation in body or lens and the grip is slippery) but they are worth considering in this category.

[Rick M]

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[Rick Dreher]

Hi Miguel,

I'll caution about using the "full sensor" term anywhere near a photo forum when referencing APS-C–it'll be like smacking a meat-bee hive with a porterhouse. :-) Sony's NEX sensor area is almost exactly one-quarter that of a full 35mm frame.

Completely agree on the quirky attraction that is Ricoh. They make fascinating, innovative cameras. The rumored µ4/3 GXR adaptor would be intriguing if it retains all lens functions. My dream is for Sigma and Ricoh to partner on a Foveon camera. Sigma desparately needs help in their camera design and Ricoh could potentially enhance their performance with the Sigma imager, not to mention tap into Sigma's lens vault. Ponies for everybody!

Cheers,

Rick

[Chris Townsend]

Rick, I think Sony's NEX APS-C sensor area is far more than one-quarter of full frame 35mm. Sony's sensor measures 23.4 x 15.6mm, 35mm is 24 x 36mm. A micro 4/3 sensor is 18 mm x 13.5 mm.

I like the idea of Sigma and Ricoh getting together. A GR-D camera with a Foveon sensor would be wonderful.

[Rick Dreher]

Hi Chris,

Yup, 'rithmetic fail on my part. The Sony area is 42% of a FF. (I have been in waaaay too many "equivalence" discussions, to the point I now avoid them like the plague.)

Cheers,

Rick

[Miguel Arboleda]

RIck@US, oops, you're right about the sensor size… not full frame.

The Ricoh A12 28mm F2.5 camera unit has a CMOS 23.6mm x 15.7mm, 12.30 megapixel sensor. So, about the same as the Nex 5.

A Foveon sensor. That truly would be wonderful.

[Bob Gross]

The big advantage of having a small sensor like that is that you will get a much deeper depth of field for any particular focal length of lens. That is also one disadvantage, since you can't control the depth of field as compared to a "big camera." So, advantage or disadvantage depending on what your subjects are. I would think that the primary subjects for backpackers would be scenic views, campsites, and things of that nature, so it would be an advantage. OTOH, if you shoot more creatively, it could be a problem.

The other big disadvantage is color noise. In the early digital days, color noise was such a problem that we all had to keep our ISO settings to a minimum. Now, some years later, as the sensor semiconductor designs got better and better, we have welcomed much higher ISO settings that still get quiet results for color noise. (Last summer I had to shoot some at ISO 12800!) Unfortunately, the small sensor cameras don't have that ISO capability and be quiet. So, the disadvantage is real if you need to push the ISO a lot, and it isn't so much of you keep the ISO in a relatively normal range.

So, again the answer is: it depends.

–B.G.–

[Chris Townsend]

Bob, which size sensor are you talking about? APS-C sensors have improved greatly with regard to noise. The NEX 5 sensor is far better at high ISO than the Canon 450D sensor. You can see shots taken at 12,800 ISO with the NEX 5. I reckon they're about as noisy as ISO 800 shots on the Canon (and ISO 400 on the Ricoh GR-D).

[Bob Gross]

Full size 36x24mm sensors are quieter than APS-C, which is quieter than the smaller sensors…if you compare state-of-the-art models. I'm not sure what a Canon 450D is.

Of the models sold domestically here in the US, Canon 5D (full) and Canon 7D (APS-C) seem to be very quiet.

You really have to compare them directly to know for sure. Also, there are tricks going on underneath the hood of some cameras if you are shooting at "odd ISO" steps, and those produce under- and over-exposures that are compensated out. However, the under-exposed shots tend to show the worst color noise for anything.

–B.G.–

[Miguel Arboleda]

Rick@Japan, thanks for the offer of bringing back a Nex 5 from the States. Actually the reason I need to buy it in Japan is that I was given an Amazon Japan gift coupon for my 50th birthday, which is the only way right now that I could even consider getting a new camera. I was hoping that Amazon Japan would have world models, but it seems no. I may just give up on the Nex 5 for now and get the new Ricoh GXR's A12 28mm camera module instead. It's expensive and so I haven't been able to justify it until now.

As to sensor sizes and their advantages, one of the big advantages of the Ricoh GXR system with separate "camera modules" is the each camera module can be outfitted with a sensor that is optimized for the lens it uses. It means buying a new sensor each time you buy a new lens, and that can quickly become very expensive. But you also get an interchangeable lens system that is sealed from the elements and so much less worry about getting dirt on the sensors. So I can use my small sensor A10 lens units for images with great depth of field and close focusing ability and the larger sensor A12 lens units for more depth of field control and less noise. And since the camera modules are not limited to the 2 dimensional limitations of a fixed, in-body sensor, a camera unit that extends out beyond the body is also possible. Pretty neat stuff!

[Franco Darioli]

From a different point of view…
The NEX 5 with the Japanese menu is obviously the standard import version for the local (Japanese) market
This has an NTSC 1080 60i video capture and a local (Japanese only ) G/tee.
The "export" version (International version) has the PAL 1080 50i video capture, multi language (not Japanese as far as I know…) and an International G/tee.
So I don't find it unusual that it would be more expensive there as the Japanese version would be more expensive in Australia.
And , yes it can be annoying for the 1.5% foreigners, but it probably it is annoying for Japanese tourists visiting here not to have signs in English.
BTW,. the NEX 5 is made in Tahiland so the "export" version would be a very small part of the total import of that model to Japan .
So why do Sony and Pana have Japanese only versions ?
My guess is as a point of difference and to protect some markets from grey imports.
Franco

[David Ure]

"The NEX 5 sensor is far better at high ISO than the Canon 450D sensor."

I returned the Sony for the T2i and the Canon is far better than the Sony at high ISO. I found hte low light pictures of the Sony lacking.

[Chris Townsend]

"I found the low light pictures of the Sony lacking." In what way, David? I find processed low light raw files fine. I haven't bothered with jpegs.

I haven't used the T2i. I wanted a lighter weight camera not a slightly heavier one so I didn't consider it. According to DxOMark the NEX 5 has better dynamic range than the 450 or 550D.

Not that I'm complaining about the 450D. I've shot many photographs with it that have been published in books and magazines and which I like (and the same applies to the 300D and 350D, both of which I previously owned). But I do like the much lower weight and bulk of the Sony.

[Bob Gross]

I think the Canon 450D is almost three years old, and a lot has changed in the color noise field since then. I think that is the same as a Canon XSi, and I think that the Canon T2i is much newer and uses a much newer image processing chip.

Rather than comparing apples and oranges, I think we are comparing apples and thermal neutrons.

For a long time, Canon was improving its color noise performance by one stop per camera body generation. Then the small/compact cameras have jumped in there recently. Can anybody compare?

–B.G.–

[David Ure]

Hi Chris – I found that I had to bump the ISO up significantly with low light conditions and then found more noise than I wanted. Note that this was obviously not in RAW.

I am really anal about the noise produced at high ISO. I did find it much better than say the Lumix LX5, however.

[Miguel Arboleda]

Franco, the Nex 5's that ship to Europe and Asia are PAL, but I'm pretty sure the model that ships to the States is NTSC, too, since that is the standard video format of North America. A friend in Britain told me that his British Nex 5 has a Japanese menu.

[Dirk Rabdau]

Beautiful picks! Thank you for sharing them!

[Chris Townsend]

Thanks Dirk. Glad to hear you like the pictures.

David, I'm very concerned about noise too. I don't use the Canon 450D above ISO 400 for any serious work. I reckon I can ISO1600 will just be okay with the NEX 5.

Bob, I can only compare the cameras I have. The Canon 550D/T2i may well be as good as the NEX 5 regarding noise but it's slightly heavier than the 450D/XSi.

DxO Mark is a good place to see technical differences. You can compare several cameras. According to DxO Mark the NEX 5 sensor will produce slightly better results than the 550D and noticeably better than the 450D.

http://bit.ly/hjQ4u4

By the way, the Canon cameras are badged differently in Europe to stop grey imports. They are less expensive in the USA.

[David Ure]

Oh wow Chris. That Canon 450 obviously has a different sensor than the newer Rebels.

I have been very pleased with the performace of both the T1 and T2, both of which don't have the same ISO issues.

Now if I could get the same Sony panoramic picture option I would be happy.

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