Nov 28, 2010 at 12:46 pm #1265994
Has anyone used a Neoair with a Zlite pad (or similar) in Winter, and if so how cold do you think the combination would work too.
StephenNov 28, 2010 at 1:04 pm #1668657
ill prob get a RR solar though to double up with once they come out in canadaNov 28, 2010 at 1:26 pm #1668667
The RR solar does look interesting, I must go have a look at one in a store.
StephenNov 28, 2010 at 6:32 pm #1668796
You could go pretty cold with this. The combined R value would be nearly 5 as I recall. I would feel comfortable using this winter trips down to at least 0 F.Nov 29, 2010 at 4:17 am #1668955
Cheers DanDec 1, 2010 at 1:24 pm #1669840
Better be careful, there are people saying that below ~15°F the Neoair becomes relatively ineffective. You're lying on air-filled tubes that transport the warm air to the side of the pad and to exposed parts of the pad where you're not laying on. So you not only got the ground that cools down your pad, but the cold air around the pad, too. The Neoair is no winter-pad, even when combines with other pads (you could try to put a foam pad on top of the neoair tho).Dec 1, 2010 at 1:44 pm #1669857
Cheers for the reply.Dec 1, 2010 at 2:57 pm #1669881
@jamesdmarcoLocale: Finger Lakes
That is a bit of a loaded question. I have had a Nightlite and neoair out to ~10 in late Fall. But I cheated a bit.
I put the neoair inside a SS Down Hugger 0, then inflated it. Seems to work…at least I didn't get cold.
Generally, on snow, you don't need anything much beyond R5 or R6. The snow itself is an excelent insulator. You really want to keep your body heat from melting the snow and losing that insulation. Ice is not good.
jdmDec 1, 2010 at 3:00 pm #1669885
I have done three trips so far over the past month and a half with a neoair and a army surplus od green ccf pad.
Each trip was for two nights.
Trip 1 night 1: Low was 29 degrees wind was 10-15mph, I was using my Nemo Meta 2P tent with both vestibules fully open. I was using my TNF nebula 15F bag with a cap 3 top a smartwool beanie and a cap 2 bottom. I slept perfectly fine with no chills at all during the night. I woke to a nice layer of frost and some frozen condensation above my husky tent partner.
Trip 1 night 2: Low was 32, wind was 5-10mph. I was sleeping in a shelter. I was actually warm and started to sweat around center torso about 3am and slept the rest of the night with my bag open about halfway.
Trip 2 Night 1: Low was 23F with a light snow falling, winds about 5-7mph. Same bag and baselayers. Was perfectly fine. In the Meta, vestibules fully closed.
Trip 2 Night 2: Low was 27F with no breeze to speak of. Perfectly fine. In the Meta. vestibules fully open
Trip 3 Night 1: Low was 21F in a shelter,gusty winds about 15-20mph, perfectly fine.
Trip 3 Night 2: Low was 19F with a 5-10mph breeze, in the Meta with vestibules half closed. Perfectly fine.
I am 5'11 205lbs, I think the neoair alone is fine down to about 32F, and with a ccf pad I have been fine down to 19F. I think that this setup would easily take me to 10-15F, and then I could add more layer inside my bag and probally be able to make it down to close to 0F and be quite comfortable. ymmvDec 1, 2010 at 9:19 pm #1670029
i would agree that at freezing you should add a foam pad to the neo air … ive taken it down to 15F or so by itself inside a bivy and could feel the warmth going to the ground … not unbearable by any means, but definately cool at that pointDec 2, 2010 at 8:03 am #1670100
thanks Guys for all the informationDec 2, 2010 at 9:44 am #1670130
@coastiebobLocale: Wishing I was Backpacking
I have used the Z-Lite/Neo-Air Combo. Last year I tested the neo-air on it's own in a tent with on top of granular snow(icy) temp of 32F. I was using a REI Radiant 10 and generic military thermals. I was quite cold and I could feel the pad sucking the cold out of me.
Two weeks ago I used the Z-Lite/Neo Air Combo in a tent at 30F. Same sleeping bag with smartwool top and bottom. Woke up half way through and was very hot all over and had to strip down to briefs and T. I used the Neo-Air on the bottom after reading some feedback here. I would be very comfortable going to about 10-15F with that setup.
What I don't like about the combo is the Z-Lite takes up a lot of volume. One of the beauties of the Neo, besides weight, is that it really does pack small allowing me to use a smaller pack if desired. The plus to the Z-Lite is you can go to your local REI and quickly buy cheap insulation.
My future solution for trips with a temp of 35F-40F and below is to use my custom mat from Kooka Bay, which I am eagerly waiting to receive.Dec 2, 2010 at 10:45 am #1670153
Benders down Mat do seem quiet nice.
I have an Exped Down Mat 7 which is great bit a bit heavy.
StephenDec 18, 2010 at 7:03 am #1675327
Hope all is well today, I emailed Cascade Designs asking them what temperature the Neoair and Z lite could be used too, the reply from Cascade designs is below. As I will be packing a short neoair and full lenght Z lite I could double it over if I got cold.
The reason we do not publish temperature ranges for our mattresses is
that there are many things that influence if the mattress will be
comfortable at a given temp, and when you get below freezing your bag
becomes even more important so it is hard to predict how a system will
work. Our R-value scale is a relative measure, ie… 3 is warmer than
2, 4 is warmer than 3 and so forth. When you combine products like a
Z-Lite and a NeoAir, the combined R-value will be lower than the sum. So
in this case a 2.2 + 2.5=4.7, so the combined value would likely be in
the low 4+ range, which is a "4 season" rating for us. That means the
product will work in below freezing temperatures with the proper
sleeping bag. From field experience, we know the Neo itself will work
down to freezing and adding the Z-lite as a base will get it down even
farther, likely approaching OF (-18C) IF the user has the proper bagDec 18, 2010 at 7:23 am #1675331
Sounds like CD wants the Z-Lite to be under the Neo Air. I seem to recall another thread where posters thought it should be on top of the Neo Air. What's the concensus among you folks?Dec 18, 2010 at 7:25 am #1675332
Thats intersting Gary :-)Dec 18, 2010 at 8:49 am #1675346
>>Sounds like CD wants the Z-Lite to be under the Neo Air<<
I am normally a summertime hiker with not a lot of cold weather experience so this is strictly a FWIW post. :-)
Being taught in a refrigeration class that heat travels to cold and not the other way around I would believe that the pad with the higher rated R value should go closest to your body. The theory being that your body is the source of the heat that you want to retain and not let it go to the cold ground.
Adding more insulation between the higher R value pad and the ground could only make it better but I am surprised that it isn't additive. I am surprised that the R value of the two pads adds up to an R value that is less than the sum of the two. "?" :-(
NewtonDec 18, 2010 at 8:52 am #1675347
Cheers Newton, thats good to know. :-)Dec 18, 2010 at 9:22 am #1675355
Thanks, Newton–science is good. Then Robert refers to the other thread's comments. I wonder if the Neo Air's reflective layer enters into this somehow. I suppose the only way I'll know for sure is to just try it myself both ways.Dec 18, 2010 at 10:24 am #1675369
@kevperroLocale: Washington State
Cascade Designs is covering their butt. R-Values from a thermal standpoint do add. But rating something by R-Value isn't the entire story. It is just one aspect of thermal transfer and when a body lays on something and compresses it you no longer have the same R-value.
I'm betting you will find that the Zlite on top of the Neoair will be warmer. Only way to know is to try both. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
I use a 1" self-inflating with a Ridge Rest and can use that combo on snow and sleep warm.Dec 18, 2010 at 10:28 am #1675371
CheersDec 18, 2010 at 10:56 am #1675384
>>I suppose the only way I'll know for sure is to just try it myself both ways.<<
Use what works and lose what doesn't! ;-)
>>when a body lays on something and compresses it you no longer have the same R-value.<<
The more it compresses the more conductive it becomes!
>>I use a 1" self-inflating with a Ridge Rest and can use that combo on snow and sleep warm.<<
I'll take the wisdom of experience and lessons learned afield anytime! ;-)
There is another thread that is being discussed simultaneously called "Why am I still cold with this winter quilt?", that is also worth a read.
In what order do you use your pads and what is the R value of each. Have you tried them in differing orders? If so, have you noticed any difference?
I am very interested in this thread and the other because I will be on the AT in SW Virginia this September and I want to get my sleep system adequately set up before I bed down and become a FOPS. FAT OLD PEOPLE 'SICLE! ;-)
NewtonDec 18, 2010 at 11:38 am #1675392
@kevperroLocale: Washington State
I've done it both ways and to be honest it was warm enough either way. I didn't have any kind of controlled test and didn't feel the need to experiment further although I carved up a RidgeRest two years ago and now slip what is left of it directly inside my sleeping bag. The remainder is about 5oz. and my old 1" thick self-inflater is about 16-17oz. R-Values which they say are "relative" are on the Cascade Designs site. I think the RidgeRest is around 2.2 and the newest version of the Prolite is listed as 2.2-2.8. I have no idea how my old version that was over ten years old compared to the newest flavor. I just sold it and bought the girlie version that is 66" long and they list a higher R value for it. I'm suspicious of the claims but I figure most 1" self-inflating pads will be fairly comparable.
But…. Kevin the physics nerd thinks that the insulation provided by the foam RidgeRest is very predictable. As I roll around my body heats up the insulation quickly. The deflection of the air mattress is also minimized because the foam layer distributes my weight at the pressure points over a wider area of the air pad. It stays thicker when my bony hip points into the pad. Of course the foam deflects too but not to the same degree. As I said…. it works either way. At some point you just go with what works and stop worrying about it.Dec 18, 2010 at 12:04 pm #1675399
Ahh, the wisdom of experience. ;-)
NewtonDec 18, 2010 at 12:38 pm #1675406
note that CC could also be looking it from a comfort and durability perspective … for which the neo on top makes sense
i dont think it matters much either way
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