State of the Market Report: Two-Person Double-Wall Tents (2010)

[Addie Bedford]

Companion forum thread to:

State of the Market Report: Two-Person Double-Wall Tents (2010)

[Scott Smith]

The Tent Review was 10000000 times better than any other review that you would read from any other source…

This site continues to be the BEST source for BP info

Thanks !!!

[Ross Bleakney]

>> AFAIK MLD, LightHeart, and Alpinlite don't offer double-wall tents.

Yes, I believe they do. For the most part, their double walled options are for one person, but they do have double walled combinations for two people:

MLD: Duo InnerNet and Duo Mid. "Duo Combined with the Silnylon DuoMid = 2 person FULLY double walled tent for 29oz" (from http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=127).

LightHeart: Duo. "A spacious hybrid (single/double wall) design" (from http://www.lightheartgear.com/LightHeart_Gear/Duo.html). Since they call it a hybrid, maybe it isn't double walled. Interestingly, they call their solo a double walled, so I would be curious as to the difference. Maybe their solo is double walled, but their duo isn't.

Alpinlite: Bug Shelter 2.0 with Terraform. "The Terraform tarp, available seperately, has been specially designed to work with this the Bug Shelter 2.0." from (http://www.alpinlitegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=50&zenid=b97ca17519065567e21567b3ee82e387). Despite the spelling errors, it looks like a double walled tent to me.

All three of these are designed to work together, as double walled tents (with the possible exception of the LightHeart offering, as noted). Oh, and I forgot another one (my apologies):

Hyperlite Mountain Gear — ECHO II Ultralight Shelter System – http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com/products/shelters/echo-ii-ultralight-system.html

This is arguably the most integrated and high tech version out there. To be fair, some of these might not have been offered when the testing began. But I'm pretty sure MLD has made a double walled, two person tent for a while now.

[CW]

Ross,

The LightHeart tents are single-wall with double-wall sections. The MLD, Alpinlite, and HMG are all designed as tarps first with optional bug shelters. They can be used in similar fashion to a double-wall tent but none are sold as such.

I have used offerings from all 4 and even have a custom Echo II. They're all great options but not marketed as double-wall tents like everything else in the report.

[Mary D]

Chris, MLD, Alpinlite and SMD certainly do offer true double wall tents. The only difference between them and the big companies is that they sell the outer fly (or pyramid in the case of MLD) and inner net tent separately, for those who may want only one of the components. They do state on their websites that the combination makes a full double-wall tent! Is there something wrong with that policy that prevents the two components together from being true double-wall tents? They are a lot more than just tarps with a bugnet underneath; the outer fly is fully enclosed with a zippered door and the bugnets have bathtub floors.

The Lightheart Duo is advertised as a double-wall tent, and as far as I can tell from the pictures, looks like one.

[CW]

There's nothing wrong with using any of them as double-wall tents, but they aren't marketed as such.

I've had the LH Duo and it's not fully double-wall.

The MLD, Alpinlite, and HMG, and SMD offerings are all sold as shaped tarps. The MLD and SMD are fully enclosed for the most part, but the HMG and Alpinlite are 3-sided.

There is an obvious trend with the UL manufacturers toward designing hybrid tarp shelters. I will suggest to the publishing team that there be a new category and SOTM report for them.

The LightHeart is spacious, but not like their Solo where the walls roll all the way up for 360 degree views.

I had one of the first Duo Mids and found it tight without the inner so I don't see how it could fit two very well with the inner.

I personally love the HMG and believe there's a review of it in the works.

I have no experience with the SMD or Alpinlite tarps although I did have one of the first Alpinlite bug shelters and found Gen's quality as good as anyone else.

[Mary D]

There's nothing wrong with using any of them as double-wall tents, but they aren't marketed as such."

Per the MLD website: "ALSO SEE THE DUOMID INNERNET netting insert – Turns the DuoMid into a super light sub 2lb – two person fully double walled tent." http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=105

"Duo Combined with the Silnylon DuoMid = 2 person FULLY double walled tent for 29oz" http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=127

Per the SMD website, an even stronger statement: "The Haven Tarp is designed to be mated with the Haven NetTent. Together they form a luxurious sized double wall shelter at a mere 36 ounces (1 k)." http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/tarps.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_smd.tpl&product_id=45&category_id=8

I would call that marketing them to be sold together, even though the components are listed separately!

[CW]

I read that as them offering the option, not selling them as double-wall tents. I suppose it's open to interpretation though, where something like a Hubba Hubba is sold strictly as a double-wall tent.

Another possibility is that the various manufacturers weren't willing to offer up their shelters for the review/report.

[David Ure]

How about non-trekking polled supported double walled tents as a qualifier for this report? That is, only double walled tents with dedicated tent poles as part of the geometry. That would omit the tarp hybrids mentioned.

[Mary D]

Problem is that all the manufacturers of tents that use trekking poles also offer regular poles with their tents. Again, it gives the customer the flexibility to use or not to use….

You appear to be saying that something where the components are sold separately can't be a double-walled tent, even though it meets all the other criteria according to the article.

I'm not saying that I agree with all the article's criteria, but if we are going to accept those, these tents meet all of them!

I suspect that most of the "cottage" manufacturers work on too narrow a profit margin to be able to offer free items for evaluation. That is unfortunate, especially in the segment of the backpacking gear market represented by members of this site, which patronizes and encourages those same small businessmen! I'm not sure there's a solution for this problem!

Edit, later: Could the cottage manufacturers at least be mentioned in SOM reports, that they offer viable options even though they were not able to offer items for evaluation? At least people would know that such items exist outside of the major corporations and REI! I'm just throwing this out as an idea for discussion!

[Ross Bleakney]

>> They're all great options but not marketed as double-wall tents like everything else in the report.

Huh? I took the time to copy and paste sentences from each website (as well as a link the site, so you could read it yourself). In all four cases, the tent maker said that it was a double walled tent. That is marketing. At least, that is as much marketing as you are going to get from these folks. Maybe you should talk to their marketing department — you know, their VP of Marketing. Oops, their ain't one. Most of these are one person (or maybe family) run organizations. You are going to exclude good entries because their marketing isn't good enough? Seriously?

The fact that these companies offer each part of the puzzle separately is a bonus. The companies that do so shouldn't be excluded because of it. They should be rewarded.

I'm sorry if I'm hard on you folks here, but I'm disappointed. At some point next year, I want to buy a double walled tent. I want it to be light. I want it to be ultralight. All four of the options I mentioned fit that description. Many of the tents you just tested do not.

Again, maybe you'll pick those up when you do a single person tent. Or maybe you didn't include those because they weren't available when testing started. But to exclude them because of marketing sounds like a really, really bad idea.

[Russ Bogardus]

Ray,

Thanks for the great review! One question though that you might be able to offer us some insight on since I assume you set up most, if not all of the tents. One criteria that is import to me is now easy a tent is to setup in windy and/or increment weather and night conditions. We've all been there some time or another and I couldn't help but notice from the pictures that some of the tents had funky asymmetric pole configurations. Can you give us any insight?

Thanks,

Russ Bogardus

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Great detailed review Ray. We needed a comparo like this to really understand the pros & cons of each of the tents in this category.

I'd have liked to have seen a Hilleberg tent inclued but I guess their 2 person tents probably are not light enough for this article, even with their proprietary light fabric. Maybe it's the coating they use that makes them heavier.

BTW, I'm noticing the larger tent companies are finally discovering silnylon.

[Robert Cowman]

"How about non-trekking polled supported double walled tents as a qualifier for this report? That is, only double walled tents with dedicated tent poles as part of the geometry. That would omit the tarp hybrids mentioned." (David)

Or how about "Double wall tents with dedicated poles and come all in one package you can grab at a retailer. no added optional extras. and can be found in a retailer where you can see it in person"(Yes I know Big sky isn't one and they have lots of different options for their tents but they always have a couple in magazines at gear guide time)

or what it seems like what everyone wants "here is a multi-year review of every tent on every website, someone has spent countless hours of their free time and money to review for people's insight and information, just to have them complain that there wasn't the tent they were looking at anyway"

Seriously Again with the complaints? These Reviews are of mass market products. They seem to be aimed at the products you can go grab at your local retailer. this lloks like it could help the massive influx of new members to this website. Most of the people looking at a MLD Cuben Duo Mid with a net insert are on there second or third sub 4lb shelter option, Meaning they have done tons of research on whats out there. Go through the Gspot fourm and on any given page there will be 2 or 3 threads of repeats of people asking advice on sleeping bags, and tents and down jackets for a a first time buyer of light weight gear. So yes it may not include what a cottage website says is double wall, but that gear isn't in your REI and there isn't usually a similar version of it in the store either. Any tent can be double wall if you word the description of it right.

"A GG Spintwin is a double walled tarp when compared to a lean-to tarp."

Great review Ray keep up the great reviews and putting your personal time in for the communities benefit.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Nice report. I think Ray did a good & fair job.

IMO, the SMD Haven is a double wall tent because it was designed as such. The MLD DuoMid + Inner probably is as well, although IIRC the DuoMid wasn't initially designed as such.

The HMG Echo II is debatable, but technically it is single wall at the foot end. You need to draw the line somewhere and if you start including hybrid tents (however small that single wall section may be) then you really open things up. For example, the TT Double Rainbow + Liner is pretty darn close to a double wall.

[James holden]

you simply cant review a lot of the cottage tents in a comparison here IMO …

can you imagine the uproar if BPL rated tarptent, MLD, SMD, etc …. lower than tents available at REI

the HORROR !!!

everyone would be up in arms … owners of such tents would cancel their memberships … BPL staff would be fed to hungry starving bears …

BPL is like any other forums … everyone has their fanbois …

not to mention i feel soo much more elite in my new cuben tent … over the poor dino that has a silnylon tarp .. never mind the poor bum with a big box retailer tent … lol

time for the abestos suit !!!

[Robert Cowman]

looks like all us Canadians are on the same page… most of these tents will never be available for us in stores too..

[James holden]

as a side note this review is serious gold for big sky in marketing

big sky takes 1st, 2nd, 3rd place in the review … not even the chinese ping pong olympic team does a full podium sweep like that …. lol

MSR takes 4th (very good for a mass retail tent), REI 6th(not bad for a big box retailer tent), Big agnes 5th and 7th (again good for a mass retail tent), tarptent 8th (the HORROR !!!)

BPL is known to be as impartial and objective a reviewer as there is out there … no sponsorships, no advertising, no reviewing their own products

Rank Manufacturer / Model
1 Big Sky Intl Evolution 2P
2 Big Sky Intl Convertible 2P
3 Big Sky Intl Revolution 2P
4 MSR Hubba Hubba HP
5 Big Agnes Copper Spur UL2
6 REI Quarter Dome T2
7 Big Agnes Fly Creek SL2
8 Tarptent Scarp 2
9 Mountain Hardwear Skyledge 2
10 Sierra Designs Strike 2 LT
11 Big Sky Intl Montana 2P
12 Nemo Espri 2
13 Vaude Power Lizard
14 Sierra Designs Lightning XT 2
15 MSR Carbon Reflex 2
16 Terra Nova Voyager Superlite
17 Vaude Hogan Ultralight
18 Montbell Thunder Dome 2
19 Terra Nova Laser
20 Big Agnes Seedhouse SL2
21 The North Face Meso 22
22 Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight 2
23 Marmot Zonda
24 Big Agnes Seedhouse
25 LL Bean Microlight
26 Sierra Designs Vapor Light

edit: mistyped big agnes instead of big sky … oooopsies daisies

[Nick Gatel]

>> as a side note this review is serious gold for big sky in marketing

Hmm… don't you have to be a paying BPL member to read the article? If so, no big benefit to them.

[James holden]

anyone whose halfway competent in marketing would ;)

[Raymond Estrella]

"Thanks for the great review! One question though that you might be able to offer us some insight on since I assume you set up most, if not all of the tents. One criteria that is import to me is now easy a tent is to setup in windy and/or increment weather and night conditions. We've all been there some time or another and I couldn't help but notice from the pictures that some of the tents had funky asymmetric pole configurations. Can you give us any insight?"

Hey Russ,

Except for the tents reviewed by Will and one other, I set up and used every tent at least one night. (Those were media samples that had to go back.) But most of the funky-poled tents we did full reviews on. They are not bad once you get used to them. The "hardest" was probably the REI Quarterdome as it is just all one big pole, but I got it down pretty quick by the end of the two months I used that one. Feel free to email or pm me with any specific question about a tent that you are interested in.

[Raymond Estrella]

Thanks for building that list. I never looked at the final order. I rated each as I finished with them which stretched out over 12 months. (This was supposed to be an 8 month ordeal, I mean project ;-) And remember most of those are based on me. You could rate them quite differently.

The Big Sky tents were reviewed and rated by Will with the exception being the Revolution that I rated as I was able to use my brother-in-law Dave’s for one night. (And which he just traded me for a Fly Creek 2, anybody want a Revolution with no wait?) After seeing what it took Dave (and the other two testers he was a part of) go through to get them delivered I was put into a negative frame of mind towards Big Sky that I had to put aside to remain impartial.

Right now I am testing the newest version of the Evolution 2P that was not received in time to make it into the SOTMR. I have to say that I am very impressed by the two Big Sky tents I have used. They are some of the most well designed tents I have seen. I want to get this one in some bad weather and then I will write it up. Watch for a full review in the near future.

[Joe Clement]

Nice review Ray. Sounds like Big Sky still has their legendary delivery though.

[Ross Bleakney]

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm being really critical. I know you got a lot of flak over the pack reviews, so it may seem like piling on (for what it's worth, I thought the pack reviews were great — I think it is an impossible job because so much of it is personal preference, but you did it well).

I really appreciate these reviews, and when I saw the notice "Double Wall Tents (2010)" I got really excited. However, after reading the review, I was disappointed. Not in the way you covered the tents (I though you did a very good job) but in the tents you covered. To me, the list of tents looks a lot like what Backpacker Magazine might review. Yes, just about all of these can be bought at REI — that is the problem. I want to be clear, here, I love REI, I buy most of my gear at REI, but there is a lot of great stuff that simply isn't sold at REI. This is the stuff I expect you to rate. Maybe it is too much for you to cover all of the combinations. Fine, then remove some of the standard tents. Again, this could be done simply and easily, by lowering the weight standard. Failing that, I would err on the side of reviewing a cottage tent, rather than one sold at REI. I can walk into REI and see how an MSR tent fits. I can buy it and return it without guilt or cost (no postage). The same isn't true with many of the mail order tents.

I think it is impossible to rate every combination of net-tent and tarp. But, at the same time, I came up with several examples of companies that state, on their website, that it makes for a good "double walled tent" when paired as such. Another approach would be to simply ask some of these companies for a combination that meets the requirement. Some may say they don't have it, or that it would be a stretch. Others will say that a particular net-tent was designed to go with a particular tarp.

Now, a personal story. When I started reading about ultralight backpacking, I ended up getting a single walled tent from Eureka (a tarp didn't make sense — too many bugs). The tent sucked. Eureka makes a lot of good tents, but this one had horrible condensation problems. Then I found out about this website. Soon after, I saw a review of single walled tents. They included a few tents from big manufacturers, but the ones that came out on top were made by SMD and TarpTent. I had never heard of them. Based on this website, I decided to get a TarpTent Squall 2. If not for this website, I may have given up on single walled tents and ultralight backpacking in general. If I hadn't gone ultralight, I probably wouldn't have gone to half the places I've gone (I hate carrying a heavy pack, it kills me). In other words, those reviews changed my life (for the better). I just don't see this review doing that for anyone, while a review that included tarp/net tents combinations could.

Again, it's too late for this review. It's also not fair to suggest that you test gear that wasn't available when you started testing. What I do suggest is that if you consider these types of tents (or whatever you want to call them) in the future when doing reviews. Throw them in a different class, if you want, but I would really appreciate such reviews. I don't know if you plan on doing a test of one person double walled tents, but that might be a place to do it.

[Nick Gatel]

Ray did a great job, IMO.

We really need to remember that this is JUST a SOTMR, not a comprehensive review, based on the criteria that Ray/BPL established.

So take a look at what is out there, and if something tickles your fancy, then research further. Many of those tents have more detailed reviews in other places here on BPL. Also as STOMR, most of these are mainstream shelters, as that is what comprises the largest market share.

An UL STOMR with a little different criteria would provide the opportunity to look at the cottage industry. Also keep in mind that BPL would have to buy most of these tents, because the small business owners often cannot supply samples. A single tent can cost them a lot of money when you look at the additional gross profit that must be generated in additional sales to cover each sample. We cannot just state that it would be good marketing for them, because most do not even keep a full inventory in stock (Shires might be an exception for some items), especially when you consider that some of them offer shelters in several material options. Sometimes there is a multi-week wait to get the UL shelter of your choice.

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