Aug 16, 2006 at 6:36 am #1219330
@cmcrookerLocale: Desert Southwest, USA
Companion thread to:
Coleman Fyrestorm Ti Stove REVIEWAug 16, 2006 at 2:00 pm #1361227
Is this stove compatible with Coleman Powermax fuel canisters, or can it be safely adapted to work with them? Where available, Powermax seems to be better than regular canisters (mixture?, crushable).Aug 16, 2006 at 3:53 pm #1361234
While Coleman has a photo on their website of a canister inverter stand compatible with Max stoves they’ve not, to my knowledge, proposed a Max adapter for the Fyrestorm.
It would seem a relatively simple task, but I doubt there would be much of a market for it.
As to fuel mixture, it shouldn’t be difficult to find a lindal-valve cartridge with similar fuel to the Max specs. I definitely agree that the Max cartridges are easier to carry and store once depleted. Too bad nobody else picked up the system! (beta-VHS all over again :-)
p.s. The Fyrestorm is a real blowtorch with canister fuel.Aug 22, 2006 at 10:09 am #1361508
@sumoLocale: Southern Quebec
When reviewing gear it would have been more useful to know what the actual ambient temperature was since the place name “Whipcrack Hill” has no significance to me.
KB Montreal, CanadaSep 3, 2006 at 3:16 pm #1362291
> Is this stove compatible with Coleman Powermax fuel canisters,
Not compatible at all.
> or can it be safely adapted to work with them?
This would require a custom adapter, as shown in the recent article on modifications to stoves.
> Where available, Powermax seems to be better than regular canisters (mixture?, crushable).
The mix is 60% butane 40% propane. Yep, this is a real cold-weather mix!
> While Coleman has a photo on their website of a canister inverter stand compatible with Max stoves they’ve not, to my knowledge, proposed a Max adapter for the Fyrestorm.
I don’t KNOW, but I suspect this project may have died.
> As to fuel mixture, it shouldn’t be difficult to find a lindal-valve cartridge with similar fuel to the Max specs.
Nothing with that much propane is on the market. Definitely a top winter mix.
> When reviewing gear it would have been more useful to know what the actual ambient temperature was since the place name “Whipcrack Hill” has no significance to me.
Sorry, good point.
About freezing – cold enough that it wpuld have made problems for an upright stove.
Sorry about delay in answering – I was away for a while and then it slipped.
Roger CaffinDec 6, 2006 at 10:08 am #1369690
Question for you. I presume that in the warmer months you can leave the canister leg stand at home with this stove.
New to canisters,
ShaneSep 16, 2008 at 4:33 pm #1451325
I've been experimenting with an MSR WindPro. I found that it is very easy (and weightless) to invert the canister by (1) unscrewing the connection between the hose and the canister head, (2) inserting a small brass washer, and (3) screwing it back on until the washer is pressed into the seal. It tested leak-free, no problems. If anyone is interested I'm happy to track down the size of washer that fits.
However, in inverted mode the stove simmers about as well as a SimmerLite (ie. very very poorly). I gather that this is because the valve is on the liquid end of the fuel line. So much for that portion of the efficiency advantage of gas stoves…
The Fyrestorm looks like it should do better–finally I understand why there's a control valve at the burner head. But surely it's on the wrong end of the preheat tube? I understood that it would want to be after the fuel is vapourised, and it appears to be before. Does enough heat travel down the generator tube to reliably vapourise the fuel before it hits that valve?
That's a question based on my questionable understanding. The real question I want to ask is: does the stove simmer well in the cold (ie. below -12C or whatever the boiling point of isobutane is when it's emerging from its pressurised state in the tube)?
The other question–below -12C does the stove need priming (ie. lighting outside the tent) when running from a canister?
-BenSep 23, 2008 at 2:14 pm #1452002
>>Question for you. I presume that in the warmer months you can leave the canister leg stand at home with this stove.
Nope. The canister connection is on the stand. The connector to the stand is the Coleman connector, and would not fit the canister directly.Sep 24, 2008 at 3:40 am #1452057
> I presume that in the warmer months you can leave the canister leg stand at home with this stove.
VERY belated reply!!! I missed your posting while I was away.
No, the legs on the canister stand are sort-of attached. In the warmer months you would be better off with a small upright like the Snow Peak GS(T) 100.
As G Kullenberg said.
CheersSep 24, 2008 at 3:50 am #1452059
> The Fyrestorm looks like it should do better–finally I understand why there's a control valve at the burner head. But surely it's on the wrong end of the preheat tube? I understood that it would want to be after the fuel is vapourised, and it appears to be before. Does enough heat travel down the generator tube to reliably vapourise the fuel before it hits that valve?
Your analysis is right on both counts. The valve should be after the preheat tube. But there seems to be enough heat flow back down the preheat tube for the valve to usually be above 0 C, which ensures that the fuel has vaporised before it gets to the valve.
Of course, using a propane/isobutane mix is very smart. This is more suited to cold weather.
> Does it simmer well?
Yeah, not bad. The delay between altering the valve and having the flame change is much less than for the Xtreme for instance.
> below -12C does the stove need priming (ie. lighting outside the tent)
Well …. depends. By the time I have assembled the stove my hands have usually warmed the fuel line up a bit, and that helps. But I ALWAYS light these inverted-canister stoves cautiously, with just a little flame at the start. So I guess you would say I do prime the stove – for about 5 – 10 seconds, before turning up the power.
However, I never bother lighting the stove outside the tent. Sometimes the weather out there is … unhealthy … Sometimes you couldn't create a flame out there in the wind either. But I do leave the end door of the tent open a bit at the start. Softly softly, gently.
CheersFeb 22, 2010 at 1:08 pm #1577142
As long as the stove will work even for a moment (ie. above -20C with a propane mix) it can be lit with the canister in gas-feed mode, and therefore it will not fireball (unless you open it up inside the tent for too long before lighting it). The generator tube heats in a few seconds, after which you can switch to liquid by flipping it.
This is difficult with the Fyrestorm, since the hose is too stiff to willingly let you run in gas-feed mode (and many people have reported Fyreballs). Not too bad with my modified WindPro, but not great. Others? Also, of course, while a knob after the generator would be ideal, the WindPro will simmer quite nicely when it's warm enough to run in gas-feed mode.
Also: I got a 3" brass bolt and a couple of knurled knob nuts. They screw down around the canister interface of my WindPro and give it lateral legs (the hose is the third leg), so the canister sits happily upside-down. Weight: 13g. They didn't have aluminium ones.
It's handy to be able to run the stove either way. A swivel would be ideal if the moving parts were reliable. Has anyone found a part that would allow a WindPro or what-have-you to swivel easily?Mar 17, 2010 at 10:52 am #1587523
@icensnowLocale: New England, USA
Thanks for the tip on adding legs to the WindPro – brilliant.
Now if we can find aluminum bolts and a swivel we'll be all set.
Re. Fyrestorm Ti: is Coleman changing the stove somehow? Their current website description of the Ti and SS is confusing?
WarrenMay 15, 2010 at 10:11 pm #1610203
the difference between the Ti and SS is that the Ti is titanium materials and SS = stainless steel.
weight difference is about 2 oz between the Ti and the SS.
price difference is about $40-45.Mar 18, 2011 at 9:24 pm #1711034
How low can one operate the stove in inverted canister mode? At what temperature would one be well advised to cut over to Coleman fuel? 0F? -10F?
HJMar 18, 2011 at 11:48 pm #1711065
There's no upper temp limit to using inverted canisters. You can use them safely in all conditions.
RickMar 19, 2011 at 2:41 am #1711085
Certainly down to -10 F, canister temperature. But before giving up all hope beyond that, stop and think for a bit about how you carry and use your stove.
First of all, let's assume you are carrying your stove and canister in your pack against your body. Now I find I can carry 1.25 L PET bottles of water that way and they never freeze. So anything placed near my back in my pack is unlikely to drop below 0 C. For butane/propane mix in an inverted canister, that's warm!
Second, I usually have water in my pack – water, not ice. So if I place the canister in a bowl of water during use, or fill the inverted base up with water, that is going to help keep the fuel around 0 C. For butane/propane mix in an inverted canister, that's warm!
Third, once I have the stove running I can always arrange that the canister gets a LITTLE radiant heat from the stove – enough to keep it around 0 C. (NEVER let it get too hot to touch comfortably.)
So just how cold does it have to be before you can't use an inverted canister stove any more? Very, very cold if you are smart.
CheersMar 19, 2011 at 2:41 pm #1711274
Good points. I believe that for just about any trip I'm ever going to take some type of liquid feed gas stove will do the job.
I'm curious about that -10F (-23C) number. I'm wondering if you could comment more on how you got that number.
I know that propane boils at -44F/-42C. Since the propane content of an (iso)butane/propane canister is in effect pressurizing the canister (when inverted), would I not have sufficient pressure to feed fuel to the stove at temperatures below -10F?. There must be other factors that come into play, yes? If you had the time and inclination, I'd be most interested in your comments.
HJMar 19, 2011 at 2:59 pm #1711281
Oops, think I misread your original question, Jim.
I'll take a stab at an answer–in a liquid feed situation the fuel blend probably acts uniformly for the life of the canister, unlike a vapor feed where the propane fraction can be used first in the cold and performance suffers as it's used up. I've tried the Fyrestorm with a canister stowed in the freezer (~0F) and it did run. As Roger noted, once it's lit the canister will receive heat from the burner and the canister should burn to the last drop.
It's not much of a bother to warm a cold canister in a jacket pocket beforehand. I've heard of folks placing a chemical heat pack on the inverted canister, but I've never camped when it was cold enough to need a scheme like that.
None of this is a vote against white gas, it's just that the Fyrestorm runs a lot better on canister fuel. I'd rather carry a different WG stove.
RickMar 19, 2011 at 3:31 pm #1711294
Yes, a bit of a mis-understanding. No worries.
I am interested in knowing about the Fyrestorm, but I'm even more interested in understanding the principles behind it. Understanding how stoves work makes me better equipped to select and use properly a stove for a given set of conditions. Yes, I can read "-10F limit" but it's nice to know why.
You would not believe how many very experienced backpackers and mountaineers I've encountered who really don't understand the how and why of stoves. I've heard some pretty outlandish ideas about stoves. One of my favorites is that "alcohol is for high altitudes." What?! It's such a relief to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff when people say such things.
HJMar 19, 2011 at 6:24 pm #1711374
> Since the propane content of an (iso)butane/propane canister is in effect pressurizing
> the canister (when inverted), would I not have sufficient pressure to feed fuel to the stove
> at temperatures below -10F?. There must be other factors that come into play, yes?
Yes indeed. I regret the need to have to invoke some gas (physics) laws here, but they are almost the only way to explain this. When you are talking about a mixture of liquids, such as butane and propane, you have to calculate the total vapour pressure by doing a weighted average of the individual gas pressures. This is discussed further in the technical articles cited below.
What that means in rough terms is that the high vapour pressure of the propane is diluted by the presence of the butane. The details are discussed in even more detail in the 4th article cited below.
Selecting a Canister Stove for Cold Weather Backpacking
Part I: Stove and Fuel Fundamentals
Selecting a Canister Stove for Cold Weather Backpacking
Part II: Commercially Available Canister Stove Systems
Lightweight Canister Stoves REVIEW SUMMARY and GEAR GUIDE OVERVIEW
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_canister_stoves_review_summary.htmlMar 19, 2011 at 7:10 pm #1711399
Roger! Thank you so much. That's just the information I was looking for.
Now, if I'm understanding things correctly, the mixture used would be quite relevant. For example, if I have a gas blend of 65% butane and 35% propane (Powermax), it should work at a lower temperature than a blend of 80% butane and 20% propane (Glowmaster), yes?
So, is -10F a good safe bet no matter the blend? Or does the -10F figure assume I'm using one of the better brands with say 80% isobutane and 20% propane?
HJMar 20, 2011 at 2:08 am #1711529
You should read the last URL I gave. It covers the techie details of the gas mixtures.
The more propane, the lower the temperature. I think I was quoting for a 70/30 mix, which is usually available. You can't go much better because the canisters are not rated for more propane-rich mixes.
CheersMar 20, 2011 at 4:52 am #1711538
Thanks. I did read the last article, with great interest. It talks mainly about upright canister stoves. I was wondering about remote canister stoves in liquid feed mode. Can I develop any reasonable numbers from the charts for a given mix for remote canisters?
P.S. By the way, 70/30 mix is not available in the US, at least I've never seen it or heard anyone discuss it. The best mix in a standard threaded canister is MSR at 80/20 that I know of. Jetboil is a bit cagey about their figures, but they may also be 80/20. Snow Peak follows fairly closely at 85/15 which I think wouldn't amount to a whole lot of difference in practical terms.
P.P.S. To clarify, I'm speaking of isobutane/propane mixes. 70/30 isobutane/propane mix is not available in the US that I'm aware of.Mar 20, 2011 at 6:25 am #1711548
@newtonLocale: Southeastern Louisiana
Check out this link to 70/30 mix at WalMart.
NewtonMar 20, 2011 at 10:06 am #1711607
Ah, yes, but that's 70/30 ordinary butane/propane. What I was talking about was 70/30 isobutane/propane. Huge difference. Sorry I wasn't clear.
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