“Expert” List Needs Fresh Perspective

[Sam Haraldson]

Mike, I feel that in theory, keeping a down jacket dry makes a lot of sense, but that in practice it is quite difficult when in a heavy-rain situation. Pair that with the fact that I don't actually own a non winter-weight down jacket and that is why I carry the synthetic.

[>> Bender <<]

Sam you could drop half a pound or more with a new rain and wind jacket (10.9 & 4.1 oz). I made a momentum 90 wind jacket and Cuben rain jacket. Both came out at 2.3 oz for size medium so that's 4.6 oz total! The price to make both was also very reasonable. I also wear my wind jacket for a little extra warmth when needed. I slept in it a few weekends ago.

[Miguel Arboleda]

A trash compactor bag isn't sturdy enough alone to act as the outer layer of a backpack and replacing the trash bag with a heavier, dedicated waterproof bag would offset the weight saved by chopping the panels out of the pack. Thoughts?

Yes, I thought the trash compactor bag wouldn't hold up to abuse, and therefore suggested the sil-cordura dry bag. The one I use from Sea-to-Summit is very light, not that much more than a trash compactor bag (sorry, I can't weigh it because it's sitting inside my pack right now, ready for a four-day trip tomorrow). It's not the same as the much heavier drybags that come with the Arctic Pack (which I own). Both a trash compactor bag plus the dyneema fabric used for the Amp together must weigh more than the dry bag, though, no? SilCodura is very sturdy stuff. Or you might replace that with a large cuben stuff sack that you roll down on top… perhaps the material that ZPacks uses for its Blast packs?

Or you might try something like Colin Ibbotson's Skins Pack, which basically is a rolled CCF mat with shoulder straps and a raincover pulled down over it. Easy and cheap to make, configurable to the size you need to carry, and very light.

[Sam Haraldson]

>…a trash compactor bag plus the dyneema fabric used for the Amp together must weigh more than the dry bag, though, no?

I'm interested to know the answer to this. A packbag made out of a waterproof material that is strong enough for the abuse I give it is something I am definitely interested in. The strong cuben fiber fabrics that have been seam-sealed would certainly work. My lack of a cuben backpack is mostly a matter of not wanting to spend the dollars at this time.

…Colin Ibbotson's Skins Pack…

This is awesome. I've not looked at these plans before – thank you for sharing.

[Jonathan Ryan]

hey Sam, my local is very different than yours but I did a Teton hike this year so I am familiar with your gear needs. Only thing that I stood out to me was the fishing shirt/windshirt/rain jacket combo. Out west I wore a patagonia sun shirt for bugs/sun and carried an eVent rain jacket. With that combo I found no use for a windshirt even with extended sections above treeline. But if it makes you happy then you should carry it.

[Sam Haraldson]

>…But if it makes you happy then you should carry it.

Ahh, how sweet of you ; ) But seriously I'm constantly waffling on whether to or not to bring the windshirt. It doesn't always get used but when I do need it I end up being happy with the decision.

I like Bender's suggestion of finding lighter alternatives but thusfar either haven't spent the dough or put the effort into MYOG'ing it.

[Jason Elsworth]

thusfar either haven't spent the dough or put the effort into MYOG'ing it.

I think this comment probably sums up the point you have got to with your list (and the point many of us get to). To get much lower you are going to have to spend some dollars or make something a bit different yourself. We then have to decide is it worth the dollars and do we have the time.

[Sam Haraldson]

Jason,

I definitely appreciate all the comments I've gotten. I asked for fresh perspective and I've gotten it thusfar. I agree with you though, many, many gear list advice threads do end up coming down to the bottom line dollar or MYOG options.

[Jason Elsworth]

Sam.

Yes, I have also found this a useful thread. I always find that someone has a different way of doing things that I haven't thought of. Even if it doesn't offer a huge weight saving it may just work better.

I do wish I had the time for complex MYOG projects. Maybe one day. I was all fired up for making a Skins pack, but concluded that it would probably take me 5-10 years:) So I just stick to simple projects like stoves and wind shields and to buying a few bits of gear from the cottage guys.

[Andy F]

I probably wouldn't take my own suggestion, but you could leave out the stove, pot, and utensil if you ate cold food. It just depends on whether that's worth the 5.5 oz of weight savings. :)

If you ever carry the second liter of water only to allow for treatment time, your total pack weight would be lower with a filter.

[David Chenault]

1: Super glue

How often have you used it? With duct tape probably not needed.

2: Bivy sack

Not needed with tarp and good site selection.

3: Two pad system

Perhaps light, but two torso pads seems unnecessarily complex. Replace with a cut down 48" ridgerest at same weight and greater simplicity.

4: 31 oz shoes

That's pretty heavy. Of course, changing shoes (or rain gear, or leaving a wind layer at home) only to save weight is silly, IMO.

[. .]

"…many, many gear list advice threads do end up coming down to the bottom line dollar or MYOG options."

Distilled: "comes down to time and/or money"

(the time necessary to develop skills included under "time")

I would opt for (even for just a change-up) a MB Ex LIght Jacket to save half the weight over the parka. They dry remarkably quickly because of how thin they are and don't loose as much % of warmth vs. thicker down or even synthetics when wet. You can get a down balaclava or hat for an ounce or two more and drop the heavier hat for conditions cold enough to warrant.

[Nick Truax]

Regarding the redundancy of raincoat and windshirt:

A friend of mine suggested to me this year to leave my LW rain jacket at home here in the land of Montana "splash and dash." I was skeptical at first, but soon changed my view.

While lately the rain has come down, I adhered to this suggestion and have only brought the raincoat recently due to constant rain/T-storms in the forecast. The windshirt has otherwise prevailed and I have had no regrets to carrying one less *redundant* item.

Edit: Hooded Houdini as well, mtwarden. Nice one.

[Mike M]

^ this has been my strategy of late as well- Montana too

the windshirt (mine is a hooded Houdini) does pretty well w/ the typical short lived afternoon thunderstorm- it's also great for bugs- I'm using Merino 1 or Capilene 1 for my base layer

the rain jacket in my experience is a poor substitute for a windshirt-the breathability just isn't there, add in the fact that I typically don my windshirt a lot- makes more sense leaving the rain jacket behind

other possible option is a poncho/tarp- MLD makes a cuben one that is pretty darn light (the silnylon ones are pretty darn light actually)

Sam- still curious on the 900ml pot- seems a little large for one, I seemed to get by fine w/ a 450, easily w/ a 600ml

[Nick Gatel]

Sam,

"I have been practicing UL backpacking techniques for about five years now"…"has worked smashingly."

Great list overall and it works for you. Sometimes it is best to ponder/worry about other things in life than the weight if your kit :)

There may be some alternative items, but how do you measure the utility of something new versus that just plain works for you?

You can get an even lighter pack, but if the Amp works, then let it be. Even Joe at ZPacks will tell you that his cuben packs are only good for one long thru hike. For really light trips (similar to your gear), I like the functionality of the GG Murmur, which is almost 3 oz lighter than the AMP. However, I would have bought an AMP a while back if they were still in production.

Like you, MYOG just does not appeal to me, and the time it would take to become compentent would not be worth the investment.

You list your 1 liter platys x 2 at 3.8 oz. Are you sure? If I remember correctly, mine are .9 oz or 1.8 for two. However, I am using plastic water bottles and Gatorade bottles more and more. Stiff structure is more convenient and the wide mouth Gatorades are worth a little extra weight in many conditions.

As they say in architecture, "form follows function." And in backpacking, function should be paramount to weight. Lightest isn't always best. Although I have a a pretty light kit, I am not entirely thrilled with the function of every single item. Now that it is easy for me to work in the 4lb – 7lb range all the time, I may move to some heavier but more functional items. I am especially concerned with some items that are "throw away," have a limited life span, or require too much care or attention on my part to prevent damage to them.

Anyway, your time would be better spent keeping the BPL Store inventory full, than losing a couple ounces in your kit :)

Always enjoy your posts here. And there is nothing wrong with TP!

[Sam Haraldson]

Andy: Yes, weight could be saved by leaving the cooking items at home but this list is for a relaxing weekend wherein I take joy in the cooking aspect of backpacking. I have a gearlist that shaves two more pounds off this one – but at the expense of many comfort items.

Dave – Super glue doesn't get taken on all trips. I need to remove that from this list. Bivy sack is a warmth/wind protection thing for me. I'm considering replacing my quilt with a top-bag style system that would replace the bivy and probably save half it's weight. Replace two-pads with one – yes, that is something I will do for simplicity's sake.

Aaron: At half the weight, how does a MB Ex Light compare in warmth?

Nicholas: the "splash and dash" technique sounds dangerous to me. Two weeks ago I spent the better part of an entire day on a 23 mile day hike in which it rained, sleeted, and snowed on us for 25 to 30% of the day. Having only a windshirt and hoping to avoid hypothermia would have been nearly impossible w/o actually running instead of walking. This technique works in theory, but I've encountered too many cold, rainy days far from a road in which being cold and wet were not an option.

Mike: I see the splash and dash technique works for you too. The 900 pot is my "go to" pot. This summer I've been backpacking with my roomate a lot and that pot is the right size for the two of us to heat water (we then re-distribute into separate bowls). The 900 is also Caldera system I happen to have so that is another reason. So, no particular reason to, or not to bring that size. I could definitely shave some grams and be perfectly fine with a 550, 600, or 750 mL.

Nick: I need to weigh the Platys again methinks – you're probably right on those. You make a good point in asking the question of trying something new vs. using what already works. I agree with this but also understand that change and diversity bring innovation. I'm confident in this list but wanted to hear other suggestions in case my rationale has stagnated. TP? Quit using it in the woods sometime in 2007 and will never go back!

[. .]

"At half the weight, how does a MB Ex Light compare in warmth?"

Fortunately for us, Will has answered this rather conclusively in the "Ultralight Three Season Down Jackets SOTM Report 2010 p.2" (see below chart + link). Taking into consideration the hood, and the body coverage provided thereby they should be roughly equal in warmth (thanks to Richard Nisley for the observation), just different in weight (see the second link below):

As an interesting aside for colder conditions, the MB Ex Light/Down Inner + Cocoon Pro Parka should make a great combo:

Scroll to Richard's last comment towards the bottom of the thread.

[Sam Haraldson]

> Taking into consideration the hood, and the body coverage provided thereby they should be roughly equal in warmth

You provide good evidence but I'm not sold. The value of the hood and the synthetic insulation of the Cocoon are still superior over the Ex Light. I do, however appreciate the combo you present via Richard's comments from the other thread.

[Mike Clelland]

Sam wrote:

---

"TP? Quit using it in the woods sometime in 2007 and will never go back!"

Mike replies:

---

bless you!

[EndoftheTrail]

Just a quick tangent…

The real blessing comes when you quit using TP in the woods AND just use your hand instead of mutilating innocent leaves and such. :)

[Sam Haraldson]

I'm only kind of a trend-setter, so you first, Ben.

[Jim Colten]

Ben: "The real blessing comes when you quit using TP in the woods AND just use your hand instead of mutilating innocent leaves and such. :)"

Sam: I'm only kind of a trend-setter, so you first, Ben.

I may have already shared this story so stop reading if it starts to sound familiar …

Hardly trend-setting there. One of my brothers spent some time in northwestern Africa a few decades ago and reports that the prevailing custom was to do just that … and then wash your hands well afterwards.

He chose to keep using TP but even so it led to social awkwardness. The custom was to wipe your backside with the left hand and eat with the right. My brother was left handed and had to work at eating righthanded to avoid grossing out his dinner companions.

[D G]

Why is the custom in these countries to wipe with one hand and eat with the other?

[EndoftheTrail]

Not just in Africa but the 'Arab world' and many Asian countries as well — eat with your right — clean with your left — and never mix the two!!

I've never used TP out in the wilds from Day 1. It's not hard, really. A little water afterward, plus a dollop of Purell. No packing in. Nothing unnatural. No mess. And no mutilating plants either!!

Sorry for the tangent. Back to "Expert" List…

[John S.]

yep, back to real topic.

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