Jun 6, 2006 at 9:49 am #1218744
Anyone know if its possible to construct a 40 degree synthetic quilt for less than $54.95, as quoted on ray-way.com. This will be my second time around, so a kit or instructions are not neccessary. I’ve looked into Thru-hiker.com and questoutfitters.com, and their prices do not seem to compare. I’m open to any and all suggestions regarding the kind of insulation (although I’d love to find some PG Delta…) and fabric (a cheaper source for .9 oz taffeta maybe?). Thanks everyone,
-Dave:)Jun 6, 2006 at 11:04 am #1357550
Jimmy M. HarrisMember
You mean the raw materials are pricing out at more than $54.95? I’ve done a quilt but don’t remember the yardages required.
You may have difficulty finding PG Delta, but PG 3D is called Polyester Continuous Filament here;Jun 6, 2006 at 11:29 am #1357555
Get $1/yd DWR or plain ripstop from the Walmart dollar bin and you’ll be well below that price. You may be able to scavenge some light insulation from and older bag, but it might just be worth buying the insulation so you know what you’re getting.
You can probably save $20-30 if you can find Walmart DWR, though.Jun 6, 2006 at 3:50 pm #1357570
Jimmy – If my calculations are correct, the cost for buying the needed raw materials from either thru-hiker.com or questoutfitters.com is aproximately twice as much as the quilt kits available from Ray Jardine’s website. It is possible that my calculations are incorrect.
Jeff – Hmm….Wal-Mart..$1 per square yard..I usually try to stay away if at all possible, but that is tempting. If it could be found, this would surely drop the cost below $54.95. But then again….I have to think about where my money is going. Moral issues aside, my guess is that the nylon is not DWR coated. Is it possible to waterproof the fabric yourself?
Thank you both for your suggestions,
-Dave:)Jun 6, 2006 at 4:02 pm #1357572
The cheapest 3D Polarguard you can get(at under $11/yd, is owfinc.org, as mentioned already). You can get by with 2 yards per layer if you piece the length. For me, 1 layer of 1″ 3D is good for about 45F without other garments.
NOTE: OWF will not order more 3D because Dupont requires orders larger than they can warehouse economically. Get it while you can.
If you use $1/yd Walmart fabric which is usually 45 to 48 inches wide, you can piece out the shell safety with 6 yards-assuming a 54-56″ wide quilt. The Walmart fabric generally runs 1.6 ounces per yard.
PG Delta has a bad rep for durability and is only barely more efficient than 3D.
I just finished a 16 oz. (total) 3D summer quilt with 1.6 oz outer shell and 0.8 oz lining around one layer of 3D.Jun 6, 2006 at 5:31 pm #1357581
A few bits of information:
3D – $10.36 a yard 60 inches wide at OWF
Climashield – $12.95 a yard 60 inches wide at Thru-Hiker
As a point of reference:
Western Nonwovens makes and sells the following:
Several different types of Climashield
Brian Emanuel – Dir of Sales – Western Nonwovens talking to me yesterday when asked about all the above said that he makes and sells all these and that the best is Climashield XP. This is a very new product and he expects over the next couple years will become more popular that the different Polarguard products. He said there is nothing wrong with PG Delta and that after they bought the product from (who ever) they had to negotiate with the company (some company) to buy raw materials for Delta. I guess it wasn’t a friendly event and it may have looked like they would not be able to get the necessary raw materials to produce the product. It worked out and the availability of Delta production continues.
If I understand correct Climashield has a smaller fiber size than PG Delta so you get more insulation power per inch with Climashield XP. The Climashield XP I have seems to have a loft of between 3/4″ and almost 1″. It has a weight of 2.41 ounces per sq yard.
My Polarguard Delta is some that was never vacuumed packed for shipping and it has a loft of between 1/2″ and 5/8″. The weight of my PG Delta is 1.9 ounce a sq yard.
I am not sure that loft of a synthetic insulation means as much as loft of Down. It seems that if “inches of loft” means anything then the weight per inches of loft for Climashield is lighter than the PG Delta.
Does any of this really mean anything to me as a user. I don’t think so at this point. I have a certain faith in what experience seems to show that PG Delta does in combination with a shell material such as Pertex Quantum. It may have a lot to do with the stated fact that this BMW Delta has never been vacuum packed.
Over time and in use out in the woods Climashield, the new guy on the block, might prove as good or maybe even better.
For now I am looking for more PG Delta.Jun 6, 2006 at 5:49 pm #1357583
Thanks for the info; I thought DuPont was still making 3D. They had the Polarguard patent/copyright/trademark originally. So I suppose it is Western Nonwovens who requires the large minimum orders.
Somewhere recently I saw here or at backpackingnet an analysis of loft v. weight v. R value on 3D, Delta and Climashield. The latter seems to be impressing everyone.Jun 6, 2006 at 7:24 pm #1357590
I’ve found untreated ripstop, DWR ripstop, silnylon ripstop, and bugnet mesh in the Walmart $1/yd bin…not all at the same time, but it was there. Only the bugnet was 48″ – everything else was 60-65″ roll width.
These are odd lots and the workers usually have absolutely no idea what silnylon or DWR is. I wonder if Walmarts get their odd lots from different suppliers, and that accounts for the consistency of different roll widths.Jun 6, 2006 at 7:53 pm #1357593
I think we need someone to write a “common folk’s” primer with charts for how to determine the amount of synthetic insulation needed for different temp ranges. No theory just a few simple facts such as:
1. If you want to make a synthetic something – Quilt as an example – with one of the following (list common synthetic insulation) for 40+/- degrees – 30+/- degrees – 20+/- degrees etc, etc, you need this much insulation – reference insulation name list and give us the number of inches of loft or inches of layers. What ever is easy to understand. We know this is a planning number and it may not as stated work for everyone.
2. I don’t care nor do I understand much about CLO numbers or how anyone figures them. Let me decide which insulation I want to use and don’t add a lot of “Chaff” to the information. Chaff is what I used to have to drop behind me a lot when I was flying my Photo-Recon flights over less than “the friendly skies”. Chaff was used to confuse or fool those desperately seeking me. We don’t need a lot of chaff to confuse us nor do we want to deal with someones hidden agenda.
Assume we can get at least the following:
other popular insulation, I just don’t know what they are.
3. I have been given some information to use as a start point.
40 degrees – +/- 2.5 Clo
20 degrees – +/- 3/4 Clo
0 degrees – +/- 6 Clo
Note: These numbers were given me based upon an experience factor and may not stand up to scientific scrutiny. I have no idea how to translate this information to inches of loft or inches of insulation or anything I can work with.
I think we need Richard for this one.
Just keep it simple and do it quick if possible. If I can help ask.
Disclaimer: some statements may have been imbellished to make a point or add interest.Jun 6, 2006 at 10:14 pm #1357597
@richard295Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Bill, this approach has never been published by any source that I am aware of. None the less, it is based on science rather than marketing hype. It should satisfy your requirement for something quick and simple.
1) Most quilt insulation materials are close enough in insulating value that you can just estimate the warmth by the thickness. The weight is a different matter but you already understand that and your decision to go with PG Delta and Quantum is sound. Determine the thickness from Mike Martin’s table at http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bpl_sleeping_bag_position_statement.html.
2) All temperature rating charts, including Mikes, are based on some assumed theoretical average person’s metabolism. The most common is defined by ISO 8996, Ver. 2004. It is a male, 20 yrs old, 154.3 lbs, and 66.9 inches tall. This person will generate heat based on their daily basal metabolic rate of about 1,740.3 C. The table ratings also generally assume the person is wearing about .5 clo of clothing in the bag. This is equivalent to long underwear or pajamas.
3. Enter your sex, age, weight, and height into the calculator at http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/.
3) If you generate less BMR heat than the theoretical average person, you need more insulation and conversely. Divide the theoretical average person’s BMR by yours and then multiply Mike’s thickness number by the result.
Let me give you an example. I am a 63 year old male, I weigh 180 lbs, and my height is 5’ 11”. My BMR is 1475.6 using the calculator. Let’s assume I want a quilt that will keep me warm to 20 degree F and not wear any insulation in the bag other than my long underwear. Mike Martin’s table shows a thickness requirement of 2.2 inches for the theoretical average person. 1740.3/1475.6 *2.2 = approx 2.6 inches is what I would need to stay comfortable at 20F. By contrast to me, if young Ryan F. was making a new quilt for his upcoming trip to the Sierras, he would probably be fine, in his long underwear, with close to 1/2″ less insulation than what I would need.
If you wear your Cocoon insulated top and bottom to bed, you should subtract that insulation loft from the required quilt loft.
Also note that Mike’s table as well as other rating system tables generally assumes you are protected from the wind, your bag isn’t wet, you have an adequate sleeping pad, and you haven’t degraded your loft by overstuffing.Jun 7, 2006 at 3:37 am #1357603
You have removed the mystery.
I also don’t remember ever reading Mike’s article.Jun 7, 2006 at 5:14 am #1357607
I’ve bookmarked all that. Nice to have some objective info. The results of the calculations fit with my personal experience, so I’m a happy camper.Jun 7, 2006 at 5:50 am #1357608
Bill – Thanks for the PG Delta source. I didn’t seem to have much luck navigating the website, as it didnt seem to have much info on their available products other than those that are featured in the ‘product spotlight.’ Do you know how much their Delta costs?
Jeff – I’m going to suck it up and go to Wal-Mart to check out what they have. 1.6 oz per sq. yard does seem a bit heavy though. In terms of cost though, which was the intention of my original post, you’ve definitely helped a lot. Thanks.
Richard – That was a great help. My BMR is almost identical to the theoretical average at 1714.6, and so I can pretty much go directly by the listed loft to warmth ratios.
Anyone out there know if its possible to buy Pertex Quantum in small quantities at this time. I know that as of last year, it was only available in bulk. Thanks again,
-Dave:)Jun 7, 2006 at 7:23 am #1357611
I’ve found lighter and heavier than 1.6 oz – it just depends on what’s there. You’re sacrificing control over weight and color for cost. Most of my trips to Walmart have come up empty, but those few that I found something probably saved me a total of a few hundred dollars. Just buy the entire roll when you find something. If you can’t use it all I’m sure someone will take it off your hands. (Like me!)Jun 7, 2006 at 10:01 am #1357620
Will do Jeff. I’m going to go check out a couple of stores this afternoon. Thanks,
-Dave:)Jun 7, 2006 at 6:30 pm #1357655
Q-1. Do you know how much their Delta costs?
A-1-a. Wholesale price, I think at the 500 roll (60 yard a roll) purchase rate I don’t think there is much difference in price. I was quoted a price but the standard amount and volume of 500 rolls is a little more than I have space for.
A-1-b. Price from a retail seller: I would guess it would be close to the Climashield HL and XP price that Thru-Hiker is getting.
The HL and XP are listed at $10.95 a yard
What might ADD to the price is If the PG Delta is shipped to the seller and then to us non-vacuumed. We would be getting it just like the non-vacuumed PG Delta used in the Cocoon line of products. I am sure that would add an extra cost to the seller that would get passed on to us (buyers). If I can buy more PG Delta I want mine non-vacuumed. I don’t know any retailer that is selling PG Delta at this time.
The PG Delta that I have was never vacuumed and was shipped to me in 5 yard pieces per box with two boxes taped together. So when I bought mine I got ten yards for one shipping price.Jun 8, 2006 at 5:15 am #1357670
Thanks Bill. It’s sad to hear that Delta is currently unavailable in small quantities.
Wal-Mart does not sell ripstop nylon (and it didnt sound as if they recently had any or plan to get more in the near future), so it looks like I’m heading back to ray-way.com. I appreciate all of the feedback.
-Dave:)Jun 8, 2006 at 6:11 am #1357672
@bugbombLocale: South Texas
Just FYI on the Walmart fabric – the employees won’t have a clue. You’ll have to dig through the dollar bin, and they never know when they’ll have it in.
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