May 5, 2010 at 11:03 am #1258584
moved the discussion over from a different thread . . .May 5, 2010 at 11:16 am #1606448
Thanks for moving this discussion to Chaff.
All I have to say… is that in order to successfully reform immigration we will have to start carrying ID.May 5, 2010 at 11:30 am #1606460
To successfully keep out illegal immigrants (yeah, like that's a new problem), we all need to carry ID. Preferably taped to our front and back, so the police can see it easily from a distance.
To successfully defeat terror, we need to start wiretapping everyone. And torture some.
To successfully prevent the terrorists from spitting seeds at innocent bystanders, let's monitor anyone who buys seeded fruits excessively.
To successfully prevent gun crime, we should take away everyone's guns.
To successfully prevent knife crimes and injuries, no more chopping vegetables for anyone.
The things people will give up at the drop of a hat.. feel free to give up any of your rights but don't ask for any of mine.May 5, 2010 at 11:43 am #1606465
Ok, maybe I should consider this a bit more before making pronouncements.
It's hard to write a nuanced one-liner though.
Look to Singapore for guidance on the seed-spitting issue.May 5, 2010 at 11:45 am #1606467
I've heard stuff about chewing gum in Singapore.. but i guess seeds would be a mess to clean up as well.May 5, 2010 at 11:47 am #1606471
@jamespatsalides-comLocale: New England
Note that lawful permanent residents are ALREADY required by law to carry specific papers (plastic ID card) with them at all times. Failure to do so can result in being charged with a misdemeanor. The feds do not currently enforce this law – and most LPRs do not bother to carry their green card with them (I certainly do not)…
The issue in Arizona is purely that local law enforcement will be required to enforce these carry laws. It is unclear how they will do this, since hispanic citizens are not in fact required to carry papers and cannot be compelled to answer any questions about their citizenship status: non-citizens do not have these rights, although, of course, they do have the legitimate right to remain silent…. I suspect an answer of something like "I respectfully decline to answer your questions under the protection of the fifth amendment to the US constitution" would make it quite tricky for the "average" police officer to deal with. As long as you do not assert citizenship (i.e. claim that you are a citizen when you are not one), I'm just not sure how they would be able to overcome this response.
Ultimately, I think the Arizona law will simply cause problems / hassle for those who are here legitimately and have no impact on those who are not. More likely, a lot of people will just leave Arizona.
Personally, I won't be doing the Arizona Trail any time soon, that's for dang sure. Just my 2cs.
Peace, James.May 5, 2010 at 12:17 pm #1606496
I guess that was my issue. Documented immigrants have, and must carry, documentation. Undocumented immigrants (aka illegal aliens) don't have documentation. Citizens may or may not have documentation but don't have to carry it.
So how to sort out citizens from undocumented immigrants other than by physical characteristics and accent? (Or "profiling" as some like to say)May 5, 2010 at 12:37 pm #1606504
It seems logically impossible to enforce a law saying non-citizens must carry ID without affecting citizens.
There is no way to know if someone is a citizen before asking for certain kinds of ID … so everyone will have to carry ID. (I assume you don't really think accent or looks would be a meaningful predictor of citizenship status, esp. living in So Cal..)
Can't run to the grocery store without packing ID.. esp. if you look like the latest wave of immigrants.May 5, 2010 at 1:09 pm #1606519
Edited for skipping over the term "resident" and inserting "citizen" into Mr. Patsalides post.
My bad!May 5, 2010 at 1:26 pm #1606529
Of course modern technology could get past the need to carry a document. If I identify myself by name and address to a California law enforcement officer he can quickly pull up my drivers' license info including photo on the squad car's computer. (presuming we're in wireless data coverage area)
or a barcode on the forehead and back of hand…May 5, 2010 at 1:29 pm #1606531
@junctionLocale: Atlanta, GA
Take the case however you want. I just know how the USSC interpreted it.
Anyone here who thinks they are required to carry ID is completely mistaken. There is not one federal law in existence that requires it.May 5, 2010 at 1:30 pm #1606532
Those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.May 5, 2010 at 1:36 pm #1606536
@redmonkLocale: Greater California Ecosystem
I frequently fly with no identification, and/or refuse to present identification when asked if I have it on me.
In the United States, we do not need to show papers to travel between and within our states.May 5, 2010 at 1:44 pm #1606539
@clbowdenLocale: Berkeley Hills
What kind of experience do you have at airports? Do you get there extra, extra early? Is commercial flying a right?May 5, 2010 at 1:54 pm #1606543
@redmonkLocale: Greater California Ecosystem
Generally they stamp my boarding pass, and then take me off to the side for a quick and private security check. It is slightly more invasive than walking through the metal detectors with the shoes off. They do a full handheld wand search and pat me down, lift up the shirt, undo the pants etc.
I don't think there is a right to commercial travel. I think of my boarding pass and receipt as proof that I have arranged private transportation via a private airline carrier on terms agreeable to both of us. The flight happens to leave from a public airport terminal and I submit to the searches necessary to ensure public safety.May 5, 2010 at 2:04 pm #1606546
@junctionLocale: Atlanta, GA
"Beginning Saturday, June 21, 2008 passengers that willfully refuse to provide identification at security checkpoint will be denied access to the secure area of airports. This change will apply exclusively to individuals that simply refuse to provide any identification or assist transportation security officers in ascertaining their identity."
This new procedure will not affect passengers that may have misplaced, lost or otherwise do not have ID but are cooperative with officers. Cooperative passengers without ID may be subjected to additional screening protocols, including enhanced physical screening, enhanced carry-on and/or checked baggage screening, interviews with behavior detection or law enforcement officers and other measures."May 5, 2010 at 2:20 pm #1606549
I might just go to Arizona now to show them my support, with my ID firmly in hand of course.May 5, 2010 at 2:21 pm #1606551
Looks like others of you are confusing the terms "resident" and "citizen."
If I were going to discuss my packweight for "awesome summer trip 2010" you would want to know location, weights, and generally have some other bits of info.
If you are going to discuss "stop and identify laws" make sure you have the basic info on some standing federal and state law, and can define the common terms with their legal terms. I think things are getting mixed up in here because of it. :(
A U.S. citizen does not need to carry ID at all times, but certainly under many situations it is beneficial, or required.
A U.S. permanent resident, not to be confused with a citizen, must carry one at all times.
EDIT: I saw a post by Justin Taul that said,
"Anyone here who thinks they are required to carry ID is completely mistaken. There is not one federal law in existence that requires it."
Unless he is only referring to U.S. citizens, I was going to link the standing Federal statute requiring U.S. permanent residents to have their valid identification present on them at all times.
But, the url is long (cannot remember how to hotlink here), and I gotta run. If you are interested, and want to verify, you can visit our U.S. Immigrations website below.
Apologies to Justin if you did not mean residents. If you did, below is proof to the contrary.
From website http://www.uscis.gov:
"A green card is issued to all permanent residents as proof that they are authorized to live and work in the United States. If you are a permanent resident age 18 or older, you are required to have a valid green card in your possession at all times. "May 5, 2010 at 2:41 pm #1606562
@jamespatsalides-comLocale: New England
Your comments refer ONLY to US Citizens. All lawful permanent residents and temporary visa holders (such as H1B or other visa holders) are in fact REQUIRED by the federal government to carry immigration documentation with them at all times.
In my case, I am required to carry my green card with me at all times.
Cheers, James.May 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm #1606565
No doubt the law exists for non-citizens, but it isn't enforced. If you think we should just go ahead and enforce the laws we have, remember that fornication is illegal in MA and co-habitation between the sexes is illegal in VA.
Some laws are bad.May 5, 2010 at 4:03 pm #1606623
@bleanLocale: San Jose -- too far from Sierras
But, the url is long (cannot remember how to hotlink here)
Use tinyurl. See this summary
–MVMay 5, 2010 at 4:26 pm #1606631
@ouzelLocale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
"I've heard stuff about chewing gum in Singapore.. but i guess seeds would be a mess to clean up as well."
That ain't nuthin' compared to the mess they make of your butt if they catch you. ;}May 5, 2010 at 4:40 pm #1606634
@retropumpLocale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
I don't get it. IF you are a permenet resident and get asked for ID, how do they know you're not a citizen and not required to carry ID?
Reminds me of my youth working in the restaurant industry. From time-to-time immigration would swoop on our hispanic looking staff and deport any that didn't have legit ID. Occasionally this would include first, second or third generation American hispanics who were just unfortunate they didn't bring any ID with them that day. It was beyond pathetic.
I also laugh at immigration at international airports. When I fly with my non-US colleagues, I breeze through immigration by just presenting my US passport. My non-US friends are subjected to iris scans and fingerprinting. It's as if immigration doesn't think that anyone with a US passport could possibly be a terrorist, or carrying a forgery, which is laughable. So no one with an American passport has their irises or fingerprints on immigration records.May 5, 2010 at 5:08 pm #1606640
@rezniemLocale: San Francisco
The U.S.'s horrendously inefficient and arbitrary visa/customs process was a very underreported factor in Chicago losing the Olympics to Rio.
We're in a sort of catch-22, with this issue, which citizens of other countries might not understand, due to our very strange federalist republic system.
States issue ID's, including driver's licenses, and they often issue them to non-citizens. Each state regulates their own process, but they all accept each other's identification, for the purposes of identification. Citizenship, for citizens, is proven by either a SS card or a birth certificate, and legal status is proven by a myriad of documents depending on the particular status. Police from one state are not in a position to determine status based on documentation alone. Oftentimes, the INS are not able to determine status without an immigration judge. It can be very complicated.
Ironically, a national ID card could clear up the issue, but the same people opposed to that are generally the same people who are hardliners on the immigration issue.May 5, 2010 at 5:31 pm #1606647
Emma Lazarus never stipulated the color of skin or country of origin, did she?
The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
-Emma Lazarus, 1883
So did they have their visas in order on the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria?
The folks that stepped off the Mayflower applied for greencards and ultimately went through the naturalization process, right?
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