SMD Haven – First Impressions

[Greg Mihalik]

Al,
The hook is intended to catch either of the loops at the bottom of a vestiblue fly. Then you can slide the prussic down to tension the fly and 'stabilize' the vestibule.

So, depending on your guess of prevailing wind, you could 'hook' the appropriate one, and use the other as the door.

[George Geist]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the explanation it makes perfect sense.

[Steven McAllister]

We have had our Haven for a couple weeks. We haven't had any really bad weather to give an in depth review, but here are my observations:

Rog felt that the angle of the vestibule line was a bit steep to hold up in wind and I fully agree. Since the sides are steep, wind pressure will tend to pull up on the stakes more than push down on the poles.
We had one night where the forecast was for strong gusts, rain and hail so I did my own simulation and found that even 9" Easton stakes, in firm ground, at 45 degrees, pulled out easy with pressure against the vestibule. This is easily remedied by adding another line attached to the included top loops and extending at least 3 or 4 feet away from the shelter.

I don't think this is a bad thing, it is the price you pay for having the reduced footprint. In fact, I find that it just barely fits most of places I have pitched it. Most two person shelters wouldn't fit the sites we have used.
I suspect that the Lunar Duo wouldn't have fit because of the angled vestibules. I can see why Ron went with the steeper wall design.

Note, in this picture the added lines. This really added to the ability to withstand winds that night:

I am normally not a fan of double wall tents. The Haven is the exception.
First, the outer can be pitched first like many European double wall tents.
Second, with the vestibules open, it has as much, if not more ventilation than the inner screen alone on most double wall shelters, but can be closed up from inside the shelter if rain should happen in the middle of the night. A major improvement over most popular double wall shelters.

About the inability to fully close off the vestibule so that there is less of a gap at the bottom? Luckily Ron has more sense than the people making this request, by making sure that you can't fully seal off the shelter. You do have to breath and you don't want to close off the whole tent to hold in warmth.
The gap is what I would consider the minimum and feel that he really thought about this issue in the design. If you don't have enough ventilation, you won't sleep well and it can actually be harmful. Get your warmth from your gear, not by blocking off air flow.

This shelter will pitch tight with some experience. You probably won't get it right the first time. Practice makes it a lot easier after the first pitch or two.

I will try to post more of my thoughts as I get more experience in rougher conditions.

[George Geist]

> We had one night where the forecast was for strong gusts, rain and hail so I did my own simulation and found that even 9" Easton stakes, in firm ground, at 45 degrees, pulled out easy with pressure against the vestibule.

Hi Steven,

What was your "simulation"? Push against the vestibule with your body weight? It takes a lot of force to pull a 9" Easton stake out of firm ground, especially pulling at a 45 degree angle. Yet you claim it pulled out "easy" in your simulated test.

I have had my Haven out in some unexpected gusts. The tent shook but the stakes held fine. That said, It is true that the Haven (and any tent) will fair better in strong winds if guyed out using the extra loops provided.

I can't speak for Greg, but I felt he was asking about dropping a side to the prevailing wind, which is a pretty common practice with tarps. I don't think Greg was thinking of sealing up the tent as you claim.

[John Nausieda]

The soil type may be a factor. Deflection with Y or J style may be better? Coghlans recently listed a very cheap long stake in the style of the Groundhog but cheaper.

[Steven McAllister]

Hi Al,

> What was your "simulation"? Push against the vestibule
> with your body weight?

Yes, but it wasn't a hard push. It was the amount I felt a strong gust could produce. The vestibule line is much steeper than 45 degrees. Adding the second less steep line mad a huge difference in how hard I could push.
I wouldn't need the second line in most cases, but it isn't a big deal to stake it out in exposed windy areas.

> I can't speak for Greg, but I felt he was asking
> about dropping a side to the prevailing wind,

My bad. I read the posts too quickly:-(

The gap is minimal. Although the gusts ended up not being as bad as the prediction, it was windy outside. It didn't feel drafty with the vestibules closed. We'd have to test on a winter hike to really see.

One other note,
The bathtub floor is just a little narrower than a queen size bed and much longer. In fact the floor is so long that we don't have to use the vestibule, kept our gear at the head and foot of the shelter. I am almost 6' tall, so this shelter should be good for tall people.

My wife is comfy in it and that is what matters. I can't say that about most shelters:-)

[Lynn Tramper]

"> I can't speak for Greg, but I felt he was asking
> about dropping a side to the prevailing wind,

My bad. I read the posts too quickly:-(

The gap is minimal. Although the gusts ended up not being as bad as the prediction, it was windy outside. It didn't feel drafty with the vestibules closed. We'd have to test on a winter hike to really see."

No, you cannot drop the sides, even cross-staking does not significantly protect against wind. I've even tried digging holes to lower the bamboo skewers, but the gap between the lower edge of the fly and the ground is too great. If you get a good blow in the tent, it's gonna be drafty. This is based on my winter testing in moderate breezes.

I'm beginning to see the difference between my impressions of the Haven and other more favourable ones is that I've been testing it exclusively in bad weather. It's been cold and calm, followed by cold, wet and winy, followed by very cold, very wet and very windy. So I've had condensation, cold breezes blowing through, sagging silnylon that doesn't spill all the rain that hits it (it would be dismal in snow, but it's not intended for the forth season usage) and all the problems inherent in yucky weather. I have no doubt this is a great tent for fine weather, but there are other shelters in this weight range that perform better in the less than perfect conditions I've seen the last four nights. However, if double walled is essential to your needs, there is little besides the Haven and Scarp 2 that will fit the bill. I am quite looking forward to using the Haven inner on a hot summer buggy night while star gazing…

[Ross Bleakney]

OK, I'm really late on this thread, but I just got interested in this tent. I had been focused on single person tents, but my wife recently expressed an interest in an upgrade, so I've started shopping around.

Anyway, I have a question and a comment. First, it looks like this tent is being tweaked a bit for 2011. Does anyone know how it is being altered? I couldn't tell by looking at the website (maybe I missed something).

Folks on this thread suggested that maybe it would make sense to create a version that has a really long tarp that would extend to the bottom. Basically, this would prevent drafts (on a really windy day) at the cost of some condensation. I think you would want to go the other way. I think it would make sense to extend the bathtub a few inches. At that point, it really isn't a bathtub, but you get the idea. A lot of double walled tents do this. For example, here is a picture of a Big Agnes tent: http://www.rei.com/product/764121. Notice that there is quite a bit of overlap between the rain fly and the tent. This can be done and not be a sauna simply because it is a double walled tent. Now, granted, it won't ventilate as well as if it had more mesh, but that is the tradeoff. It also will weigh a bit more (unless the bathtub walls were made out of Cuben).

Anyway, I really look forward to checking out this tent (I am fortunate, in that a local retailer carries SMD products). I also hope that Ron will consider a "high bathtub" version some day. And, of course, I hope he comes out with a Cuben version in the not too distant future.

[Steven McAllister]

It looks like they extended the fly like the Lunar Duo.
Ron would be able to tell you the reasoning.

From what I have heard, people didn't like the cut/squared corners. Made it a little more complicated to setup and because the fly was so close to the mesh inner, splash could make it into the mesh in really heavy rain.

I suspect the new model will have a bigger foot print than last years model and won't fit in as many places. I know we pitched last years model in places it would barely fit.

These are not direct comparisons, just my guesses.

[Ross Bleakney]

Thanks Steven, it looks that way to me as well. After sending this post, I did notice this on the website (which I should have noticed before):

As you can see from the photo above, the new Haven will be approximately the same size, just shaped differently. We've eliminated the corner post and moved the peak closer to the center. It's still offset to provide more headroom at the end of the tent your sleeping.

Now I'm curious as to the new dimensions compared to the old dimensions. I can see trade-offs either way. Pro Mountain Sports (in Seattle) has a few of the old ones that they are clearing out. If I know more, I may just want to buy the 2010 model.

[Steven McAllister]

I think the other change, moving the peak closer to the center, is to shorten the length of the long roof section and to make both roof sections closer to the same length.

I would guess this is to improve snow and wind loading?

Although we slept in ours 20+ nights, we always had some wind break and never used it in the winter. My wife doesn't like winter backpacking and I use a tarp for solo trips.

The location of the peak on the 2010 version was right where I sit up. I don't know if the new position would change that much.

[George Geist]

> Now I'm curious as to the new dimensions compared to the old dimensions.
> I can see trade-offs either way.

Hi Ross,

The 2010 Haven Tarp is 110" long. The 2011 Haven is 114" long.
The width is the same for both models 86". So the footprint
isn't a big deal. I have used the Haven for about a year now
in the Smokey Mountains and like its ability to fit in small site.

To reduce splash during heavy rainstorms, or blowing under
the windward end of the tarp, it is possible to adjust
the corner straps to lean the corner struts out at the bottom
so that the shape of the 2010 tarp looks similar to the
2011 version. This lowers the edge of the tarp closer to
the ground and moves it out further away from the inner
nettent. (This requires adding little extenders on the nettent
corner loops – I can give details/pictures if you are interested)

This past weekend a huge storm rolled thru Tennessee with
40+ mph wind gusts and rain. I decided to run a test and
put the Haven tarp in harms way to see how it would fair.
Normally I would guy out the tarp in this situation, but
for the test, I just staked it down tight with six groundhog
stakes and watched the 2010 Haven as it was hit by gusts
I estimate were around 25-30 mph and steady wind around 10 mph.
The stakes didn't budge and neither did the Haven.
Hope this information is helpful.

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