Member’s Only – Scratch and Dent Sale

[Juston Taul]

JJ,

I'm was going to leave it up to the majority. The first time I went, I arrived at around 6am and was about 10-15 people from the front. It was fun conversing with everyone. I'm willing to do whatever, even camp out the night before. I don't even plan on buying anything. I'm just bored and enjoy meeting good people. Let me know. Like I said, coffee is on me. :D

[Robert Blean]

Ben and Juston,

I understand what you are saying. Still not sure I agree, but I do acknowledge the distinction between an honest evaluation and a deceptive intent.

Please consider that it is a slippery slope: things that you "can tell whether it's right for me just by looking or touching" may not be that way for others. I can imagine a less experienced person who cannot tell whether a tent or cooking pot is right for them without taking it on a backpack and using (or misusing) it … where does it end?

It is about who should assume the risk. You do your best. You read up on the item, you talk to others, you think carefully, you try what you can while keeping it in new condition. Beyond that, there is a unavoidable risk of unknowns, or that you have misjudged. Who should take that risk? Why should it be the company (i.e. all the rest of us) instead of you? Why should you be entitled to transfer that risk to me?

— MV

[JJ Mathes]

Justin- I live on the northeast side of ATL and can be there anytime. I don't need or want anything, but like you would like to meet others. Not going to camp out on the hard concrete of the parking deck around back, oh wait, I do have a free standing tent in my kayak gear…never mind, it's not UL and you'll laugh at me. :D

[Travis Leanna]

I once heard a lady say (maybe it was on BPL?) that she would buy her sons a full set of skiing equipment/clothes for the year. Once the next winter came, she happily took back everything and exchanged it up for the new model. She was like, "well, screw REI. I'm gonna get my free stuff because thats their policy."

Man, I wanted so bad to be able to throw punches over the internet.

[JJ Mathes]

"I once heard a lady say (maybe it was on BPL?) that she would buy her sons a full set of skiing equipment/clothes for the year. Once the next winter came, she happily took back everything and exchanged it up for the new model. She was like, "well, screw REI. I'm gonna get my free stuff because thats their policy."

I've heard similar stories, Buy the gear, spend a weekend in the woods then return it because the weekend was over.

[Juston Taul]

Haha! I wouldn't laugh. It's car camping at it's finest. :D I was thinking around 6am again. I few crazies will beat us in line, but I think we'll do okay. Who knows… might find something worthwhile. PM Sent.

[Robert Blean]

I once heard a lady say (maybe it was on BPL?) that she would buy her sons a full set of skiing equipment/clothes for the year. Once the next winter came, she happily took back everything and exchanged it up for the new model. She was like, "well, screw REI. I'm gonna get my free stuff because thats their policy."

Man, I wanted so bad to be able to throw punches over the internet.

And, perhaps worse, she is teaching her sons that such behavior is right.

[Juston Taul]

…it is a slippery slope… …where does it end?"

I agree Bob. It's seems that if you allow a grey area to exist, people will take advantage. Black and white seems to be the only way. It's up to the individual to know what is and isn't taking advantage. Hopefully they have good morals/ethics. Some have a misconstrued since what right and wrong. I do my best by being an informed buyer.

[Robert Blean]

Justin,

I do my best by being an informed buyer.

That is certainly the right thing to do — it eliminates most risk, and minimizes any unavoidable risk — for whoever is going to assume that risk. That is a Good Thing.

The other question I raised is that, to the extent you cannot eliminate the risk, why should it be right for you to transfer the risk to me?

— Bob

[Juston Taul]

The other question I raised is that, to the extent you cannot eliminate the risk, why should it be right for you to transfer the risk to me?

That's a good questions Bob. Hard for me to answer really. My best answer would be… that's the risk a company such as REI takes for having the return policy they have. It's not fair to transfer that risk to you personally by causing raised prices… but that's also the penalty you pay for shopping at REI, who in return has a no questions asked return policy. It's almost like you are paying a premium to have that option. Does that make any sense? I'm not sure I conveyed my thoughts properly.

[Robert Blean]

Juston,

I'm not sure I conveyed my thoughts properly.

Let me have a crack at it — would you agree that a summary is:

* REI's policy does have its costs — higher prices, reduced patronage dividend, inability to carry certain goods (ones that would have too high a probability of being returned), etc.

* Some people do abuse REI's policy. REI is probably not going to change that policy. Even if they did want to change it, changing it to eliminate the abuses without eliminating the good part (properly used insurance) would be difficult.

* The grossest form of abuse is buying something with the up-front intent to use it and return it. That is just plain dishonest.

* A lesser form of abuse is not doing proper due diligence up front, and returning something that you should have known would not suit you or returning something in worse condition than should have been necessary.

* The valuable part of the policy is an insurance factor. This covers you for things that you had no reasonable way to know up front, even with the best due diligence. You return such things in the best possible condition consistent with discovering they are wrong for you.

* To the extent costs are raised by people using the insurance factor in the best possible way, that is why you buy certain things there. The insurance is worth what it costs.

This would all mean that people who do as you and Ben describe above are not abusing the system because:
* You are doing the best possible due diligence before the purchase.
* You are doing the least damaging possible evaluation after the purchase.
* In spite of your care, you discover a reason to return the item — that is what the insurance factor is for.

— MV

[EndoftheTrail]

"The other question I raised is that, to the extent you cannot eliminate the risk, why should it be right for you to transfer the risk to me?"

Bob:

There's no single right or wrong on this one. But here's how I look at it:

There're myriad different ways that businesses use to attract customers, and hopefully make a fair profit. Some stores do that by keeping things bare bones and prices low. Others cater to folks who want a lot of services or hand holding. Still others go the "satisfaction guarantee" route for customers who need/want peace of mind. And items are priced accordingly for businesses to make their profits!

Theoretically, shoppers gravitate to the stores of their choice. If you don't want "risks transferred to you" and you do your own research — then a full-service business like REI is unlikely to be the best fit for you. This is why "choice" is such a good thing!

The shoppers I dislike are:

1. folks who abuse a store's return policy — and
2. folks who won't do their own homework, pump out answers and advice from a full-service shop — then buy their stuff online at a discount outfitter.

Folks shouldn't pay for what they don't need. But whatever they get — hey, pay for them! My two cents.

[Dave T]

I totally disagree that you should be able to wear shoes through a "break-in" period and then return to REI them for a full refund (unless that break-in occurs on the carpet of your house). If you put some wear on the soles (i.e. if they are not in a like new condition), I'd say there are yours to keep. There's WAY too much grey in it otherwise.

If it's not resellable by REI as new (which scuffed/worn shoe tread is not), I'd say you buy it, it's yours.(Of course, if something is defective, misrepresented, etc. that's a whole different story.)

That said, I had a pair of Merrell shoes COMPLETELY fall apart in the first 80 miles of the PCT, and tried to return them to REI, explaining that the performance was completely unsatisfactory, and they wouldn't give me a refund or replacement. I didn't push it and make a fuss about it, but I was a little surprised, given the abuse of their return policy by many people.

[Robert Blean]

Ben,

The shoppers I dislike are:
…
2. folks who won't do their own homework, pump out answers and advice from a full-service shop — then buy their stuff online at a discount outfitter.

Point #2 was very much on my mind; I did not mention it because it is off-topic. I strongly agree, though. I personally believe that if one takes advantage of a brick-and-mortar store's resources to understand whether or not one wants to buy something, then one should buy it there as well — not go on line shopping for the best discount. I buy most of my stuff on line, but only those things that I do not need the local stores to help me with my buying decision.

For one thing, if I needed their help then I would like to help ensure that they will be around the next time I need their help, too.

— MV

[Robert Blean]

If you put some wear on the soles (i.e. if they are not in a like new condition), I'd say there are yours to keep.

I personally agree with that, and I walk-the-walk. I got a pair that, after a couple of hikes, I wished were a half-size longer. I simply learned to live with them — adjusted socks and lacing so that I can get along with them. My next pair of boots will be 1/2 size longer, but these are mine to keep.

— MV

[Juston Taul]

Bob,

I can agree with that.

Dave,

Do you still stand by the "if you use it, it's yours policy" when the staff at REI tells customers to try it, and if you don't like it, to return it?

[BlackHatGuy]

"It is about who should assume the risk. You do your best. You read up on the item, you talk to others, you think carefully, you try what you can while keeping it in new condition. Beyond that, there is a unavoidable risk of unknowns, or that you have misjudged."

I approached my first marriage the same way. The item was returned…..

[EndoftheTrail]

nm

[Robert Blean]

Juston,

I would have to agree that your model is logical. It is just not the model I have always had.

I have always thought that "Satisfaction Guaranteed" meant that I could take it home, think about it, compare it with what other stores have, try it out in undetectable ways … and then return it (in new condition) if I wished.

It never occurred to me that the guarantee would be taken to allow return of items that could not be sold as new. It never occurred to me that the guarantee would be taken to mean I could now shift risk I have always had to others.

— MV

[Dave T]

> Do you still stand by the "if you use it, it's yours policy" when the staff at REI tells customers to try it, and if you don't like it, to return it?

Well, I have never had anyone there say that to me, but I don't ever really ask many questions there, since I do research on my own about this (i.e. due diligence).

If they are saying "take this Coleman stove home and try it on the kitchen counter and make some rice and see if it works for you; return it if it doesn't" that's probably cool (if you couldn't have done all the research ahead of time on your own). If they are saying "take this on three camping trips, make scorch it up some and dent the lid, and then see if it works for you; return it if it doesn't" that's not good. Somehow I think the former is likely.

I'd say that unless the item is resellable as new (unless defective, misrepresented, or all that legalese small talk), it's yours!

My worst REI return experience I have experienced was hiking the PCT, when some of us went to REI from Agua Dulce to get some gear, and one of the group actually returned a Platypus bladder for a new one because it had some mold in it! I mean, there's a certain assumption of maintenance when you buy something, right? Wash it out, air dry it, keep it full of water, whatever… just don't leave rolled up in the bottom of your pack for two weeks and say the item is "defective" and needs to be replaced because some funk grew in it. Completely f-ing ridiculous!

[Dave T]

> "I approached my first marriage the same way. The item was returned."

But did you demand a free replacement with an updated model? :)

[Jim MacDiarmid]

But something like shoes — there's just no way to tell without really putting some miles on it.

Dave,

Do you still stand by the "if you use it, it's yours policy" when the staff at REI tells customers to try it, and if you don't like it, to return it?

I spent over a year working 3 blocks from the San Francisco REI. Consequently, I spent many lunch hours browsing there. I overheard more times than I can count an employee in the Shoe dept explaining the REI return policy to a hesitant shoe buyer(after trying to sell them on a membership). He explained that shoes might hurt for a break-in period, and if they hurt after that, return them. It was his job to get them a good fit off the bat.

I also heard the backpack guy tell people about the Return Policy, asking them to treat the bag gently till they were sure, preferably not set it on fire, but REI would still take it back if they did. He was, like the shoe guy, very knowledgeable and confident he could match a person to a pack so there be no need for a return.

It was those two depts specifically where I heard them use the Return policy as an enticement to buy.

[Juston Taul]

DaveT – That is ridiculous about the water bladder. Just wow.

Here is another little something to discuss. A REI employee will have to chime in here. At the scratch and dent sales… does REI still have a profit margin? Do they price to break even? I'm curious.

Hey DaveT… I have a worse story for you. I knew a guy who would go buy items and return them prior to Scratch and Dent sales… he would then get there really early so he could buy them back at a big discount.

[Brandon Sanchez]

So if I want some REI Peak UL poles I should buy and return? If only I were some kind of libertine!

[Chad Helmke]

I personally have scored some fantastic deals at these sales over the years but it's usually hit or miss. On of the best/most entertaining parts is reading the excuses people/scumbags use to return things like, "Someone stole the hood off my jacket", or I, no joke, saw what was probably a late 70's/early 80's vintage REI brand sleeping bag that the customer returned (quite used I might add) because they didn't like it…Can't believe the audacity of some people. Best of luck!

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