Lightest winter stove base material

[Don Selesky]

"…is there a lighter material than wood which can be used which won't melt"

I use a small section of a blue foam pad, covered with aluminum tape I get from the hardware store. Nothing fancy, but light and functional.

[martin cooperman]

There is a material called Coroplast which is just like corrugated cardboard but is made of plastic and is quite rigid and very light weight. It comes in large sheets and is used by picture framers. I know that because my wife is a picture framer.

It's not very expensive and a tiny piece that acts as a stove base could likely be gotten for free or very nearly so from a neighborhood picture framer. Otherwise you'll have to marry one.

Marty Cooperman

[John S.]

I use my snowshovel blade, voile xlm.

[Derek Goffin]

I wondered if Coroplast would stand the heat

[Mark Verber]

some aluminum tape applied to a closed cell pad I was bring for other reasons worked well.

–mark

[Raymond Estrella]

Here is a link to a winter stove base I made after reading this thread this morning.

Enjoy,

Ray

http://tinyurl.com/yfgwks5

(I do not know how to put an HTML doc here, hence the link.)

[Ethan A.]

Nice job Ray. I just remembered that we have some squares of foamboard wrapped in reflective mylar that we used to use to block of light from small windows in a room in our old office. I'm going to see what a large enough square of the material for my stove base weighs. I'm afraid the mylar could melt, so will just replace it with aluminum tape.

I would use foam if I had any already around.

I'm also pretty sure a regular pie tin wouldn't sink in the snow if you use a good windscreen that keeps heat from being directed downward, like a pie tin design.

[Bob Gross]

"I'm also pretty sure a regular pie tin wouldn't sink in the snow if you use a good windscreen that keeps heat from being directed downward, like a pie tin design."

The heat reflector is the round thing underneath the burner, and it keeps heat directed toward the pot (and not toward the ground).

The windscreen is the large screen that goes around the outside of the whole rig, and it keeps unwanted wind from blowing in and carrying heat away.

–B.G.–

[Hikin’ Jim]

I just use a small square of blue ccf wrapped with aluminum foil. It has worked really well with both gas and liquid fueled stoves. The only problem I've ever had was with using Esbit on it where I melted a bit of foil — which was easily replaced — and scorched the ccf a bit.

For the record I own both white gas and Powermax stoves. There are pros and cons to both, just like any other piece of equipment.

I'd say white gas stoves are more dangerous since you have to pump and prime them; both operations have their incumbent dangers. One time I over pressurized an XGK (easy to do with the old gray pumps), and a bunch of fuel burst out around the O ring at the base of the pump while the stove was in operation. The results could have been quite disastrous. Fortunately, I was using the windscreen, and the spilled fuel did not ignite. (it's just as important to use the windscreen for safety reasons with a white gas stove as it is to use it for efficiency reasons). That close call not withstanding, I have used white gas stoves since the 60's and have never seen anyone get hurt.

Powermax stoves are such a snap to use, but the connector is vulnerable. I've seen numerous failures where the cam didn't engage properly, and I haven't seen that many Powermax stoves. If I in my limited experience have seen so many failures, I think it's fair to say that the connector is a Powermax stove's "weakest link." Carry spare connector parts (the cam and the piece the cam fits into) and you should be fine. Said parts come with the standard maintenance kits.

Lastly, a point of information: There's nothing inherent in white gas stoves that prevents them from simmering. It really depends on the stove. The Optimus Nova, Primus Omnifuel, and MSR Dragonfly all simmer very well just to name a few.

HJ

[Ethan A.]

Bob, I know what a windscreen is – I'm referring to a type of baking tin windscreen that has a base + sides – the base of the baking tin has holes cut in it for the burner and pot stands. The base keeps a lot of heat from being directed downward.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Here's an example of a pie tin type windscreen. I think what your suggesting is to put it more underneath the stove, but I thought this would be a good example. The stove by the way is an MSR Firefly (discontinued model) which is a white gas stove that simmers quite well.

HJ

[Hikin’ Jim]

So, since the subject of cold wx and Powermax came up in this thread (yes, this is a little off topic, sorry) :) has anyone used the adapter that allows one to use standard threaded canisters w/ a Powermax stove? Bob, in his previous post, has a good point in that investing in a stove that has a single source for fuel can be problematic. My old CamPak Cookette from the 70's uses a proprietary canister and is effectively dead even though the stove iteslf is still good.

The question I have is: Is there any drop off in performance in very cold wx in using the standard canisters vs the Powermax canisters? The Powermax canisters have a bit higher percentage of propane in them, so I expect that the standard canisters might not perform as well in the lower end of the stove's temperature operating range. Roger? :)

HJ

[Ethan A.]

Jim that's exactly the height I'm referring to. Here are other examples using pie tins and Ti or aluminum bowls:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?bo=watch&forum_thread_id=9505

[Roger Caffin]

< I've seen numerous failures where the cam didn't engage properly,
Known problem. I reported this to Coleman years ago, and they replied they had heard of it and could not reproduce it in the lab. Turned out they had never tested the connection in the cold, only in the lab. I worked on it a bit and found out that the tiny O-ring got too hard when cold, so that you could not compress it enough to make the connection.

There were two solutions possible: change the O-ring material or use double O-rings. I reported my analysis to Coleman and they went the route of double O-rings on the last production batch of stoves.

Yes, you can tell what model stove you have by counting the O-rings on the central spigot.

If you have the older one-O-ring model, you can always get a connection if you warm up the connector, or at least the tiny O-ring, and then press hard.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

> The question I have is: Is there any drop off in performance in very cold
> wx in using the standard canisters vs the Powermax canisters? The Powermax
> canisters have a bit higher percentage of propane in them, so I expect that the
> standard canisters might not perform as well in the lower end of the stove's
> temperature operating range.

Short answer – no.
Long answer – no.

Little real difference between propane and butane apart from the boiling point.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

> has anyone used the adapter that allows one to use standard threaded
> canisters w/ a Powermax stove?
Yes, and it works fine. However, as a solution it is a little heavy. I can't help thinking you would be better off with a Fyrestorm stove. They work quite well.

Cheers

[Stuart R]

>Is there any drop off in performance in very cold wx in using the standard canisters vs the Powermax canisters?

Since both are being used to provde a liquid feed, there will be no drop off in performance as the canister is used.

>The Powermax canisters have a bit higher percentage of propane in them, so I expect that the standard canisters might not perform as well in the lower end of the stove's temperature operating range.

Agreed, the higher the percentage propane the lower the minimum operating temperature.

[Paul McLaughlin]

I have used a disposable pie tin(wt .5 oz) with a whisperlite and it works great. Since I wanted it flat rather than dish-shaped, I put the pie tin underneath a piece of plywood on my garage floor and jumped on the plywood to give me a nice flat circle of aluminum. The only issue is packing it – I have a large flat pocket on the back of my winter pack that it fits into, with notebook and a few other flattish objects. It sometimes bets bent, but flattens out again pretty easily.

[Hikin’ Jim]

>> I've seen numerous failures where the cam didn't engage properly,
>Known problem. I reported this to Coleman years ago, and …

I'm aware of the cold wx problem where you can't get your canister to mate but your canister is just fine at room temperature. That's not what I'm speaking about.

I've seen several failures in Powermax connectors at room temperature. Generally what I've seen is that the hex shape on the canister will go in to the connector on the valve, but the cam (part 9710-1411) on the valve will not turn within the fingerplate (part 9710-1421). I've seen the cam strip. In other words the hex shape on the canister will turn inside the cam, stripping the cam, but cam for whatever reason will not rotate within the finger plate. The field repair — which is rather drastic medicine — is to break off one of the tabs on the fingerplate. When one tab is gone, the cam is no longer so tight within the fingerplate, and the cam will then rotate properly. It should be noted that the cam will not stop after it's customary stopping point; one can keep turning it. One has to feel for the one-sixth turn when the cam "clicks in."

Roger, I've seen posts by you indicating that Coleman changed the spec at some point on the Powermax canisters. I wonder if the change in spec is at issue here. Do you recall exactly what changed on the spec? Did the width of the hex on the canister change at all even infinitesimally?

HJ

[Don Selesky]

Ray:

Your stove base looks very similar to mine, except you use a circular base. I've set it up as a rectangle to also keep the Powermax canister off the snow.

I do particularly like your idea of putting a cut down the middle to create a hinge so that the base can be folded. I think I'll steal that idea for mine…

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jim

> the cam (part 9710-1411) on the valve will not turn within the fingerplate
> (part 9710-1421). I've seen the cam strip
Woo – I haven't seen that one! And I have used plenty of Powermax canisters.

In fact, I have a wee bit of a problem understanding how it might happen, unless the cam had been damaged beforehand or over-driven beforehand. That I could imagine.

> Coleman changed the spec at some point on the Powermax canisters
Well, yes and no. They did not actually change the spec. Rather, the supplier changed the crimping machine used to attach the Lindal valve to the can. In one case the top of the spigot was 1 – 2 mm proud of the rim; in the other case the top of the spigot was flush with the rim. By and large this makes no difference to the Coleman Powermax connector, but it can affect an MYOG or 3rd-party connection, depending…

> Did the width of the hex on the canister change at all even infinitesimally?
Not that I could measure. And having actually broached hex holes to fit the Powermax can (more MYOG), I would have been aware of any change which was easily measurable.

HTH

Cheers

[Steven Evans]

I run my stove (Coleman Extreme) on top of my snowclaw shovel. I've never noticed how hot the shovel gets, but it doesn't show any signs of melting…matter of fact, just this weekend, I ran my stove for over 1 hour straight sitting on top of my snowclaw. Works great.

[Derek Goffin]

thanks Steve I just bought a snow claw and wondered if it had this use.

[Hikin’ Jim]

> In one case the top of the spigot was 1 – 2 mm proud of the rim; in the other case the top of the spigot was flush with the rim.

Thanks, Roger. Can you help me understand what you're saying here? I'm not familiar with the term "proud of the rim". Does this mean that the valve, as it protrudes from the cansiter, extended 1 to 2 mm above the rim of the canister? I think that's what you're saying and that might be my problem right there.

The best I can figure is that something's off, and the hex shape of the cam isn't getting all the way into the cam. When the canister is rotated, the cam strips but doesn't turn within the fingerplate. The cam has to have a tight grip on the hex shape of the spigot on the canister. It takes a bit of force to make the tabs on the finger plate bend outwards. If the hex of the spigot isn't seated well in the cam, it takes less force to strip the cam than to expand the tabs on the fingerplate.

The field expedient work around is to break off a tab, reducing the amount of force needed to expand the remaining three tabs. With one tab gone, the cam turns more easily, allowing one to use the stove, but it turns so easily that one can turn past the pot where the overhang on the tabs on the fingerplate grip the cam. One has to turn to the correct point by feel. Breaking a tab off was an act of desperation, not a good work around! It was cool the day I did this, but well above freezing. It might have been 50F/10C.

I've seen this problem with one Xtreme stove and one Xpert stove.

HJ

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