Six Moon Designs 2-person Haven

[Hiker 816]

It looks like Ron has posted some more info and photos about the Haven tarp & net-tent.

[Jolly Green Giant]

Someone do the math… How much will the cuben version weigh if this comes in at 36 ounces?

[D G]

Extremely rough estimate:

Net tent is 16 oz and probably would not change.

Fly is 20 oz in Sil. In cuben maybe 70% of that? So about 14 oz.

So a cuben version (with sil floor) might come in around 30 oz, or a bit less than that? This is a very rough estimate.

[Jolly Green Giant]

I still can't figure out why Ron didn't just sew the net to his tent and cut out all the unnecessary weight like he did with his other tents. I would think far less people would want just the net tent and far more would want a full function lighter version. I'm not sure if a 30 oz Cuben tent is that much of a draw…considering other options and the expense of Cuben. Course, I usually don't know what I'm talking about.

[Steven Evans]

I agree – the full separate bug net adds so much weight. Although there were some issues, the Refuge X was the way to go. Mine weighs 15.9 ounces. I wish he continued down that road.

[Greg Mihalik]

"I still can't figure out why Ron didn't just sew the net to to his tent and cut out all the unnecessary weight like he did with his other tents."

I'll offer two observations. First, as Ron mentions, you can set up the "net only" on the clear but buggy nights. I do this frequently with my 'mid and bugnet combination.

Second, my personal belief is that a separated net provides better air flow and hence better condensation management, as well as a physical barrier to a wet shell.

It's all about how and where you hike. I'm a two-piece guy.

[Jeremy Greene]

I think it is a very nice design. Allows sitting up, shared bedding, no entry/pole conflict. Good competitor for anything in the mainstream backpacking world.

Full mesh is not a waste. Here is a quick and dirty explanation with made up numbers:
Outer tent is pitched with a 4" gap from the ground and the perimeter of a 6.5'x4.5' tent is 264", giving the gap an area of 1056sqin. If you replace that gap with an attached mesh skirt of the same area with a permeability of .5 the area of the air gap becomes 528sqin., a large reduction. If instead you inset a full mesh inner 4" from the outer, so long as the mesh area is well above 2112sqin., air flow to the occupant is mostly unaffected and air flow to the underside of the canopy is unaffected.

[Nia Schmald]

"I still can't figure out why Ron didn't just sew the net to to his tent and cut out all the unnecessary weight like he did with his other tents."

The extra mesh needed to make a seperate nettent probably weighs about 3.5 oz. Not a very big difference to get the extra functionality that Greg talked about.

Plus when it's not buggy you can leave the nettent at home carrying just the shelter at 20 oz + a few ounces for a ground sheet.

Another plus is that the nettent can be kept dry even when the outer is wet. If they're sewn together than they have to be packed together making for a damp next night if there is no chance to dry out.

With dual entrances the haven is pretty equivalent to the lunar duo. The haven trades a little floor space for double wall functionality and still shaves off a few ounces compared to the lunar duo. Not a bad deal IMO.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

The Haven looks amazing as I expected. Details on the Haven took so long that I ended up buying a used Refuge X, but if I do go back to a double wall tent this will be it.

Regarding the weight in cuben, the Haven tarp weighs 20oz and is surely constructed of 30D 1.1oz silnylon which actually weighs 1.3-1.4oz/yd once it's been impregnated with silicone. Of the 20oz weight of the tarp, my guess is that about 3/4 of that weight is in the silnylon since there's also the zipper, vents, corner stakes etc. So based on an assumption of 15oz of 30D silnylon weighing 1.35oz/yd, using 0.6oz/yd cuben instead would eliminate 56% of that weight. That leads me to an estimate of 11.6oz for the cuben version of the Haven tarp. This seems realistic when compared to the weight of MLD's cuben DuoMid (12oz) and compared to the old Refuge X (16oz) which included a silnylon floor.

So potentially with the cuben Haven you could have:

1) Haven Tarp: ~ 11.6oz
2) Haven Net Tent: 16oz
3) Stakes (6): ~ 1.5oz
4) Guylines: ~ 1oz

Total: 30.1oz

Pretty cool to see a double wall tent under 2 lbs.

[Mike S]

It is hard to tell from the pictures of the Haven what the pros/cons of the shelter would when compared to the Lunar Duo.

My main use would be 3 season backpacking in the mid-Atlantic. I would share the tent with my wife and if she were not going my dogs may sleep inside….otherwise they would be in the vestibules. Also I am tall…6'6

The weight difference isn't a concern for me as I would not be getting Cuban Fiber.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

The main difference between the Haven and Lunar Duo is that the the Haven is a full double wall design instead of single wall. So that protects you from condensation on the inside of the outer wall.

Besides this, the Haven is lighter and the Lunar Duo is more spacious. The Haven also offsets the trekking poles which improves headroom and door access somewhat.

[Bradley Danyluk]

How would a design like this fare under a light snow load or windy storm?? I'm not talking 4 season conditions, just a freak alpine storm any time of year. It looks like it would be really difficult to keep a taught pitch even just as soon as the sil gets wet due to the huge flat area of unsupported fabric, let alone in a big storm. I like th idea but the design is immediately worrying to me. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

The cuben version won't stretch :)

[Steven Evans]

Don't get me wrong, the Haven will be a nice setup and I'm aware of the benefits of having the shell and inner pitch-able as separate pieces. Just saying that personally, I wouldn't go for it because of the weight penalty. A cuben version would be nice though, with an integrated net around the perimeter…but then we're back at the Refuge X. :)

[Lynn Tramper]

"How much will the cuben version weigh if this comes in at 36 ounces?"

Irrelevant question. No refutable tent manufacturer would use cuben that light. Probably 0.6 oz/yd is as light as you would go for a tent.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Lynn, I don't think anyone was suggesting cuben lighter than 0.6oz/yd.

[MIchael MacCormac]

Why is everyone assuming the cuben tarp will be the Haven and not the Vamp- maybe I missed it but I thought Ron only stated on his website that he planned a cuben version of one of his new tarps- but didnot specify which one.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I asked Ron about it and he told me a cuben version was planned for the Haven.

[Steven Evans]

I didn't know he was planning to make cuben versions of any of his shelters. I thought we were just talking about it because we like to dream…I'd be interested in either the Vamp or Haven as an enclosed tarp…in cuben, not sil.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Ron wrote a few months ago that he's got a cuben version planned for either the Vamp or Haven:
http://community.sixmoondesigns.com/blogs/ronmoak/archive/2009/11/25/closeout-products.aspx

[Ron Moak]

Since people have spent a great deal of time speculating about the Haven Tarp and Cuben weights etc. I thought I’d put in my 2 cents worth.

The existing silicone nylon version Haven Tarp is designed to be large enough to be comfortable and still be very light. It is not as light as absolutely possible. While weight is an important factor in the design, it’s certainly not the only one. I’ve included components in this one that make it simpler and more functional to use. It’s probably possible to remove as much as three ounces off the existing silicone nylon tarp and still have it function well.

With a Cuben Fiber version of the Haven Tarp even more weight can be removed from the components along with a significant weight reduction in the canopy. I hope that a Cuben canopy will weigh in around the 8 to 10 ounce range. This would put the combined weight of tarp and nettent at 24 ounces. While this is still heavier than the Refuge X, I think the Haven Tarp / NetTent provides significantly more functionality.

As to when one might expect to see a Cuben Fiber version, I won’t speculate.

On the question of snow and wind. At least one commentator has questioned the reliability of the design under any wind or snow load. While not designed for snow, the Haven should no more problems with snow than many of the long tunnel type tents on the market. It will require one to be fairly vigilant in knocking off any accumulations during the night.

As to wind, the Haven will perform quite well. The different slopes spill wind quite effectively. There is a significant centenary cuts in both the back and front panels. This helps keep the canopy well tensioned. Plus the canopy is easy to re-tension either from the inside or the outside.

When compared to the Lunar Duo, the longer side section is only 1.5 square foot larger in surface area than one side of the Lunar Duo. However, the entire canopy is 10 square feet smaller than the Lunar Duo.

In the last decade I’ve accumulated thousands of trail miles over a wide range of conditions. I can’t think of one nights camp where I’d find the Haven to be stretched to its limits.

Ron Moak

[David Ure]

Ron – have you finalized the retail price of this 'bad boy'? Thanks,

[Ron Moak]

David,

We're waiting on Mfg. cost to plug into our formulas. Will know in next couple of weeks. Hopefully.

Ron

[David Ure]

Great – thanks Ron.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

FWIW, the Vamp is sorta the one person version of the Haven and the Vamp tarp is $180 and net tent is $145 ($325 total). I expect the Haven will come in 10-25% more expensive than this but that's pure speculation.

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