silnylon reinforcement

[Michael Baker]

Hi I'm planning on making my own tarp within the next month. I'm planning on getting 3 yards of silnylon that is roughly 65" wide. I'm just going to finish off the edges and use grosgrain for the guy outs(12 in total)

What is best for reinforcing the guy outs? Should I just sew a square of the same silnylon over the grosgrain or should I get something heavier?

[Tim Marshall]

this question has many answers. For flat tarps i normally doesn't even bother reinforcing 1.1 silnylon unless i plan for crazy winds and trucker's hitches. When i do use reinforcement i have used 1.1sil, 1.9 sil, 200 oxford and for trekking pole caps i use 4oz Ripstop. I think that 1.1sil is good enough for most conditions. Just triple stitch or do the xbox stitch on the tie-outs, if you bar tack you run the risk of reducing fabric strength.

-Tim

[John Roan]

Tim,

Is xbox stitch anything like wii stitch?

OK, in all seriousness, I'm still learning…haven't taken the Joanne's class…please educate us!

John :~)>

[Lori P]

"Is xbox stitch anything like wii stitch?"

If you look at a grosgrain loop attached to a tarp, the ends will be sewn on with stitches in a rectangular pattern then stitched corner to corner, diagonal like an X in a box. It's a stronger attachment than just a few zigzags of stitches.

[drowning in spam]

OK, in all seriousness, I'm still learning…haven't taken the Joanne's class…please educate us!

Joanne's has a class? I never graduated past figuring out how to sew on buttons and stripes. I should probably figure out how to do a little more.

[Michael Baker]

I am primarily going to be using this tarp in northern MN and other places around the midwest. Tim when you speak of strong winds are you referring to places that have more elevation than what is in the midwest?

[Backpack Jack]

Not trying to high jack the thread, but this question is for Tim. I sent you a PM but maybe you didn't get it so I'll ask my question here. I have a Eureka Spitfire that I'm wanting to lighten up and was wondering if you can make a rain fly for me out of Cuben or something similar. The rain fly on this tent is over half the weight of this whole structure. For more details on what I'm wanting please email me at [email protected] if you can help. Thanks Jack

[Tim Marshall]

Mike,

I have used tarps without reinforcement in the midwest with no problems. IF you are experiencing higher winds than normal it may be smart to find a more sheltered area to pitch.

I have a lot of faith in silnylon and don't reinforce shelters i make for myself. I do for others as it give piece of mind for them and i don't want to have to fix it later.

Jack,

At this time i am only making quilts. Doing other projects is much too time consuming and i am trying very hard to shorten my lead times. Sorry i don't remember getting a PM

-Tim

[John Donewar]

Mike,

I'm not sure which website it was on but I read some hints on sewing tie out reinforcements. The "hint" was to NOT use more of the same silnylon. The suggestion was to use uncoated ripstop to reinforce the underside.
The idea is to allow the reinforcement to "breathe" and not collect moisture.

Moisture trapped between layers of silnylon with no way to dry out quickly would not be a good thing.

One other thing that was mentioned was to heat seal the edges of the uncoated ripstop to control fraying of the material used in the reinforcement.

If I come across the website with these hints I'll post the link. If anyone out there knows of the website in question please post it.

Mike, good luck with your tarp.

Party On ! 2010

Newton

[Roger Caffin]

A good trick which I will recommend is to use silicone sealant to bond reinforcing patches to the corners before you start to sew. Wait until the sealant has dried before you do sew! Then sew around all the edges, then fold and hem the edges. This works very well for me, and does distribute the load nicely.

Cheers

[Tim Marshall]

Roger, that sounds like a good option. But it seems like a pretty heavy way to go. Am i missing something?

-Tim

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Tim

I really don't think it's that heavy. I'm talking about a triangle of silnylon maybe 4" x 4", and a very small smidgeon of silicone sealant. The trick is to smear the silicone sealant out very thin and then to rub the reinforcing down very thoroughly to get rid of all air bubbles. Yes, labour intensive, but this is MYOG.

Let's assume the silnylon weighs 49 gsm and the silicone adds 6 gsm, making 55 gsm. Then a patch 4"x4" is 0.1×0.1 m or 0.005 square metre. That comes to the magnificent total of 0.275 gram per reinforcing patch. What can beat that?

Cheers

[Tim Marshall]

makes sense. It just didn't make sense in my head.

-Tim

[Daniel Benthal]

"A good trick which I will recommend is to use silicone sealant to bond reinforcing patches to the corners before you start to sew. Wait until the sealant has dried before you do sew! Then sew around all the edges, then fold and hem the edges."

This method also works very well for me. I put the silicone on the patch and scrape off all I can. There should be a very thin coating on the patch. Then I apply the patch to the tarp, put waxpaper over the patch and use an old wallpaper roller to bond the patch and drive out any air bubbles. I then put a pile of books on the waxpaper over the patch and let it dry.

The result is a very strong reinforcement without adding much weight.

Dan

[Backpack Jack]

Thanks Tim. I might try it my self just not sure if I'm that skilled yet Thanks Jack

[Michael Baker]

That does make sense to not use the coated materials for reinforcement. The grosgrain would soak up water then the water would get under the patch and not really have anywhere to go right?

I think I'm going to not use any reinforcement to start. I will just bring a couple inches of duct tape in case I get a tear then I can repair it when I get back home. I'll just have to pay more attention to where I set up my tarp in regards to the weather.

I think a 9×5 tarp will make it so I can set it up just about anywhere.

[Tim Marshall]

When you hem the edges make the hem wider like 3/4" and that will give you a good area with 3 layers to sew the ti-outs to.

-Tim

[David Olsen]

"I'm not sure which website it was on but I read some hints on sewing tie out reinforcements. The "hint" was to NOT use more of the same silnylon. The suggestion was to use uncoated ripstop to reinforce the underside.
The idea is to allow the reinforcement to "breathe" and not collect moisture.

Moisture trapped between layers of silnylon with no way to dry out quickly would not be a good thing.

One other thing that was mentioned was to heat seal the edges of the uncoated ripstop to control fraying of the material used in the reinforcement."

---

If this were the case, then the hem on the tarp would
be even more problematic in wet weather.

Using coated material forgoes the need to sear the edges
of the fabric and the coating prevents fraying.

Uncoated nylon is weaker by far than the same material
with silicone coating.

Uncoated nylon would not stick well if you use Roger's
gluing technique.

[David Olsen]

""Is xbox stitch anything like wii stitch?"

If you look at a grosgrain loop attached to a tarp, the ends will be sewn on with stitches in a rectangular pattern then stitched corner to corner, diagonal like an X in a box. It's a stronger attachment than just a few zigzags of stitches."

—

The strength of the sewing depends on many more variables
than the stitch pattern. If the force is straight along the
direction of the tie out, then a box X stitch is not the
strongest, stitches parallel to the direction of pull are.
But the fabric strength, the thread stretch, stitch
length etc. also will determine the best stitch pattern.

[John Donewar]

David,

http://www.tarptent.com/projects/tarpdesign.html#anchor492320

Above is the website where I found the text below by the eleventh "bullet".

…main roof seam.
Scrap nylon for reinforcing pullouts. Use scrap from 1.1 oz. nylon or whatever else you have but uncoated ripstop is probably better to prevent water from getting trapped between the layers. Be sure to heat seal uncoated fabric with a match or soldering iron.
Home or industrial sewing machine. Be sure to use 100% polyester…

It is time for the amateurs to defer to the professionals in this matter. Is it possible for Henry and David to discuss the hows and whys of this thread?

I think Roger's method seems like would be a viable solution in practice.

Roger, have you ever noticed trapped moisture or staining as if form mildew in your tieout reinforcements using your silicone "glueing" and stitching method? I will base my choice of methods on your extensive experience.

Party On ! 2010

Newton

[Ron Bell / MLD]

I'm with Dave on the matching silnylon being prefect as a reinforcement for a Silnylon tarp- little chance of water getting trapped when the reinforcement is on the inside/bottom.

You can maybe use a little larger hem width to move the tieout stitching force away from the tarp edge- a 3/4" is fine but if you want to then 1" is OK too- much more and it starts to add weight.

Just use a triangle reinforcement about 5"X5" cut in half at each tieout point- want a bit more support for a larger (duo+) tarp then go to a 6X6 or 7X7. Make sure the leading edge stitching is not too close together so it won't form a " tear along the dots" Ok to even use two parralell rows on the leading edge of the triangle about .75 – 1" apart for even more insurance if you feel you need it.

Lots of ways to stitch the tieouts on – we use two rows of bartack/zigzag but not too tight a stitch length – you want to avoid too many holes too close together.

When you seam seal the ridgeline (if it has one) – you can also seal the reinforcement top side thread- mostly not really needed and may add up to .5oz of sealer if you do them all.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi John

> ever noticed trapped moisture or staining as if form mildew in your tieout reinforcements
Nope, never.

But note that I always hang my tent up under the eaves on the verandah when I get home, so that it gets stored dry.

Yes, I usually put the reinforcement underneath, so that the edge of the adhesive is 'protected' from the sun and rain.

Works for my tents over the last 6+ years.

Cheers

[John Donewar]

Roger,

Lets add this up. 1) no moisture and no staining. 2) tent hung up to dry thoroughly. 3) gear stored dry. 4) reinforcement underneath. 5) silicone sealant "glued" and stitched reinforcements. 6) has worked for the last 6+ years.

Give me tried and true, simple and effective anyday.

Hanging up your gear to dry out thoroughly is part of my standard operating procedure for my hammock, sleeping bag, shoes etc. This is especially true of my last 24 hour outing when it rained for 5 continuous hours in the very beginning of the hike. %-)

The real deal maker is # 6. It has worked for the last 6+ years. :-)

Tim, Daniel, David and Ron all seem to be on board with your method Roger, in whole or in part.

The info that I came across on Henry's site has not garnered the same amount of support.

I choose to lean on your expertise and experience to make my tieout reinforcements using your method. :-)

Thanks again!

Party On ! 2010

Newton

[Roger Caffin]

Oh Dear – doom is staring me in the face!

Cheers

[Vick Hines]

Mike,
I stopped using reinforcements on silnylon several years ago. Prior to that, I glued them on per Roger's method and used silnylon for the reinforcements. It works and is foolproof.

The weight does add up, however, if you are not very careful about using a plastic squeegee to remove all excess sealant. I get plastic squeegees used for Bondo work at auto parts stores. Then I apply sealant and scrape off the excess on *both* the tarp and the reinforcement before putting them together and using the squeegee to press out any air bubbles. A little presssure (like a book) for the first 20 minutes is helpful.

I stopped using reinforcements after I made a UL tarp hemmed with grossgrain (because it was easier to make the catenary edges with ribbon instead of rolling the hems) and had it last through a thruhike (5 months of hard use and high winds) and continue to this day. The AT thruhike was in '07, so that tarp does not have Roger's 6 years, but it shows no sign of failure. With careful stitching and thoughtful design, silnylon is awsomely strong. One factor may be that I use loops of drawstring elastic on the guylines to absorb wind shock.

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