Running shoes bad for the joints?

[Adam Thibault]

This week I made a pair of moccasins out of a $10 suede jacket I got at the thrift store. I wear them around town every day…
-feet are getting super tough
-look like a pair of leather shoes/not as ug as fivefingers
-only $10
-custom fit
Gonna try a hike in them this weekend!

[Rusty Beaver]

Much appreciated!

[Robert Devereux]

I hope the hold up well. I live in a damp area and wore a hole through a moccasin sole in a very short walk. Basically the leather got wet, which weakened it, and the hole appeared within about a mile.

[Adam Thibault]

I used three pieces of leather laminated for the sole, then I oiled them. I've got about 15 miles on them on asphalt and pavement and they look great!

[A Wilson]

I've been running barefoot for 4 years, not 100%, but about 80%, with some winter months off. I can testify that it flat-out cured my long-standing knee pain. I've had no injuries doing it, just frequent small splinters.

I've since moved to a city with lots of glass, dog-doo (thank you France), and a staring populace. I bought some five-fingers, which I've used a bit, but they're not nearly as good as barefoot; they cut out the all-important pain response that keeps you light footed. Plus, the toe-pockets are not sized for my particular digit profile. I've also worn huaraches, á là Barefoot Ted; I actually like them better in summer (more breathability), but they slap on pavement enough to echo, and draw even more attention than I already've got. I'm still working on a solution that is both physiologically and socially acceptable.

I've also hiked dozens of miles barefoot. The problem is not the ability of the human foot to take it, its on how much mental energy it takes to pay that much attention. The above mentioned sisters who hiked the AT twice barefoot mentions that they could only manage 17 miles/day barefoot because it just tired their brains out. I once hiked/ran 15 miles on a remote Cascade trail barefoot; my feet were perfect, but I was almost traumatized the mental effort! A day hike, no problem. Weeks on end? I'd have to have the barefoot side of it be the goal, rather than the means.

I think the best argument for shoes while hiking longer distances is that it lets you pay attention more to the landscape and less to the footpath itself. There's a lot to be said for not worrying about what you'll do if you impale your foot on a stick, break a toe in a crack, or snag your nail on a rock. In this regard, there's not yet a perfect shoe, though lightweight running flats are pretty close. Something like them with a little tougher upper, a little more durable sole, would be pretty much ideal, IMO.

Time will tell how people do hiking longs distances in minimalist footwear, but I think that as with most lighweight equipment, those who go into it with enough skill and forethought will continually surprise us with their feats. There's already a crowd that hikes mostly in Crocs. And remember Grandma Gateway and her Keds.

[Travis Naibert]

I hiked over 400 miles of the PCT in Crocs last summer after my trail runners started bothering my feet. Besides the constant "what about your arches" questions from fellow-hikers, I had absolutely no pain. It is a little slower walking when it is really rocky.

I just ordered VFF's, and I'm pretty excited to try hiking and short runs with them. I've been thinking about getting them for a while now. Thanks for the final push.

[Morgan Rucks]

I really want Inov 8 to come out with a shoe that is like the terroc 330 but more durable and even more minimalist. Slightly less agressive lugs on the sole but same pattern, more durable rubber, thinner midsole made with something that doesn't collapse as fast as the eva used in most running shoes. Tougher fabric on the uppers but keep the minimal padding and good drainage. Oh and make sure to make them in size 15 so I can wear them.

[Weiyi Wang]

Nick,

I am about to purchase a pair of Shay XC, but not sure about sizing. Do you wear socks with racing flats? Are these flats true to size? or do I need to go 1 or half of full size down from my normal running shoe (asics)? Thanks.

Weiyi

[Pieter Kaufman]

Fascinating thread!

I too had feet of iron as a kid, growing up in a canyon and spending all my time outside of school barefoot.

Too, I've marveled at porters in Nepal who cross snow-covered passes carrying upwards of 50 pounds off straps on their foreheads, completely barefoot.

And, one of my most memorable hikes in all my life was one I took on a tiny tropical island off the coast of Malaysia, barefoot. I'd been swimming at a distant cove from where I was staying, and as I came off the beach,for some reason I didn't bother putting on my flip flops, and as I continued through the jungle, something took hold of me, and I started jogging, and running, jumping roots, hopping from one boulder to another, jumping over three feet long lizards, etc.

I often think of that day, and wonder how to reclaim that feeling of absolute freedom and lightness.

Nick: you do a lot of your backpacking in our SoCal deserts correct?

Do you have any issues with your flats and/or VFFs when you go off trail with thorns and spines from all the shrubs and cactus?

What about the gravel, sand and scree? You know how Joshua Tree is; those conditions. It's where I spend most of my time.

I'm intrigued by the NB MT100s as well. I keep wanting to go lighter and lighter, with less rubber to deflect between my feet and the ground, especially when off trail and in the rocks/boulders.

[Bob Gross]

My problem at JTree was always the numbers of loose cactus spines scattered in the sand. Once you pick up a spine, you will know about it.
–B.G.–

[Nick Gatel]

I wear a 11.5 Soloman. My Shays are 12. I usually wear a silk liner or thin nylon sock. Occassionally a thin wool blend or a pair of Wright socks.

[Nick Gatel]

Pieter,

Yes, I hike a lot in the Lower Colorado desert, Joshua Tree, and Mohave Preserve.

The only problem plant I have is with Jumping Chollas. Watch out for those suckers!! If I am hiking in a lot of loose sand, then I will wear Dirty Girl Gaiters… but usually I don't wear them. You will get a lot of fine sand through the mesh material.

Remember, flats are not going to last as long as trail runners.

Five Fingers — I am no longer hiking in them. They are not my lightest footwear. Also, when I did use them, I stayed mostly on trails. Cross country I would occassionaly hit the side of my little toes on rocks and other stuff. Plus in rocky areas, they were not that comfortable on the bottom of my feet.

[John S.]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123031997

[Pieter Kaufman]

Thanks Nick.

It'll be something of a new experience for me trying the MT100s, but I'm going to do it. The local NB store has a pair on hold for me; I can't get over there until Friday.

The salesman was skeptical after asking me how I intended to use them, suggesting that they were really only appropriate for 1-3 mile runs at a time, and that for backpacking, they wouldn't offer enough support. I told him that I wasn't worried about support, nor loads nor distance (which is true), and I know that these things are comparatively fragile.

I'm guessing that Superfeet inserts would also be counterproductive, given that the MT100s are essentially flats…no?

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of having less sole rather than more between my feet and the ground, and the idea of getting as close to barefoot is intriguing. But, between the rough surfaces, spines and surface temps of the desert floor, that's just not possible. At the same time, my current system works well: I'm comfortable and never get blisters; shoes are either 12.5 ozs or 14.7 ozs a pair, depending on which ones I choose.

Still, the MT100s would roughly halve that. That's a lot of 'unsprung weight' to lose!

[Lynn Tramper]

Here's a recent bit of research (published in Nature Magazine), not on injuries per se, but interesting none-the-less:

The Shocking Truth About Running Shoes

By Gisela Telis
Scinece Mag
27 January 2010
Haile Gebrselassie, the world's fastest marathoner, once said of his early career, "When I wore shoes, it was difficult." A new study reveals why: Humans run differently in bare feet. Researchers have discovered that sneakers and other sports shoes alter our natural gait, which normally protects us from the impact of running. The finding offers new insight on how early humans ran and raises concerns that sports shoes may promote more injuries than they prevent.

About 2 million years ago, the ancestors of modern humans evolved the physiological "equipment" for running–long legs, large buttocks, and springy structures in the feet, among other features. Athletic shoes weren't invented until the early 1900s, and it wasn't until the 1970s that they found widespread popularity. So how did humans manage to run comfortably before the invention of purpose-built footwear?

Daniel Lieberman, a human evolutionary biologist at Harvard University–and an avid runner–decided to find out. He and colleagues looked at more than 200 shod and unshod runners in the United States and the Rift Valley Province of Kenya, which is known for its great endurance runners. The volunteers represented a spectrum of shoe experience, including adults who had grown up wearing shoes, those who had grown up running shoeless but who now wore shoes, and those who had never worn shoes at all. Lieberman's team arranged a trial in which each group ran shod (either in ASICS GEL-Cumulus 10s or in their own shoes) and bare and measured their running gait and the impact on their bodies.

The researchers noticed a difference right away. Whereas shod runners tended to land on the heel of the foot, barefoot runners landed on the ball of the foot or with a flat foot. The unshod runners' style causes more flex in the foot's springlike arch, ankle, and knee and engages more foot and calf muscles, blunting the impact on the body and making for a more comfortable "ride." As their feet collide with the ground–in this case, a running track–barefoot runners experience a shock of only 0.5 to 0.7 times their body weight, whereas shod heel strikers experience 1.5 to two times their body weight–a threefold to fourfold difference.

"I always assumed it was painful and crazy to run barefoot," says a surprised Lieberman. Instead, the findings–published tomorrow in Nature–suggest that going barefoot can reduce the likelihood of pain and damage, because many running injuries, like shin splints and plantar fasciitis, are stress- and impact-induced.

"This is an excellent study," says Dennis Bramble, an evolutionary morphologist at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. "Heel strikes don't allow you to use these really nifty springs that are unique to human beings, so we're being less efficient than we could be," he says. "It confirms what we should have known all along: We're built to run barefoot."

That confirmation will stoke an ongoing debate. As a glance at this month's Runner's World magazine and a recent book on shoeless running called Born to Run attest, barefoot running has gained a small but devoted following in the past decade, prompting controversy in the running community over whether it is best to run shod or unshod.

So should sporty types shed their shoes and jump on the barefooted bandwagon? "Not at all," says Lieberman. "Shoes are comfortable, and they protect the foot" from glass, asphalt, and other harsh realities of urban running, he notes. Instead, Lieberman (who has since taken up occasional barefoot running himself) recommends a gradual transition for the bare-curious, one that allows the feet and calves to strengthen slowly and avoid injury.

[Brian UL]

Daniel Lieberman's new site dedicated to barefoot running:

http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/

[Roger Caffin]

> Daniel Lieberman's new site dedicated to barefoot running:

Thank you for that Brian.

Cheers

[Cayenne Redmonk]

If I was a betting man, my money would be on pavement causing more impact related injuries than footwear or lack there of.

I can walk all day on trails, but it takes very little distance on a paved surface before I begin to feel fatigue in the lower legs.

[Lynn Tramper]

"I can walk all day on trails, but it takes very little distance on a paved surface before I begin to feel fatigue in the lower legs."

+1

I haven't checked that site out yet, but will just add that in my youth I was and aspiring "Zola Bud". I ran 100m and 10k cross country without shoes, and far from slowing me down, it really improved my speed by making me run on my toes. Alas, my feet have succumbed to the middle aged shoe wearing sedentary lifestyle syndrome. Maybe that's why I'm getting heel pain. I imagine running on your toes would go a long way towards preventing plantar fasciitis??

[Jeremy Greene]

"If I was a betting man, my money would be on pavement causing more impact related injuries than footwear or lack there of."

Cameron, If I was one, I'd take that bet. Read The Old Way and Born to Run. The Kalahari is baked hard as any sidewalk. And most of the world's shoeless people live in cities.

I don't overly romanticize the "noble savage" as I like vaccines, antibiotics, telecommunication, and priority mail. But aside from malnutrition, infection, and acute injury, leg problems are probably modern. Our shoes are distorting our feet and we are walking on our heels.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

On pavement, every step is the same. Every impact the same. My experiences make me believe that the flat, un-naturally firm, and consistent surfaces upon which many people train, accelerates injuries by focusing impact the same way, to the same spot, with each step. I also think that the variety of impacts produced by cross country running on uneven surfaces improve the minor muscles needed for stability and injury prevention.

[Lynn Tramper]

I'm unclear if this thread is about running in running shoes, or backpacking? Normal walking (as opposed to running) is very much a flat-footed or heel first kind of activity. I think it would be extremely hard to walk long distances with a forefoot first stride. It's the walking on hard pavement I find difficult rather than the running. So running shoes *may* be appropriate footwear for walking in…??

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Since all the barefoot sites focus specifically on restoring the forefoot strike of a natural runner, and the benefits of such a stride, I assumed people were talking about running.

I don't see many people marching down the trail with a forefoot strike.

[Nick Gatel]

Cameron,

Some excellent points made in your last 3 posts in this thread. If you hike barefoot or in 5 fingers, you will place more weight and center of gravity on the ball of the foot, rather than the heel. Maybe not all the time. Most trailrunners have a large platform for the heel, which is porportionally wider that the front of the shoe, compared to the foot.

Keep in mind that I have a pair of the Vibrams, and like them, but no longer hike in them. Racing flats are lighter or equal in weight and I can hike on rough surfaces that I cannot tolerate with the Vibrams. However the life of racing flats for hiking are not long. I usually hike in Salomon trail runners. But when I need to go SUL, lets say sub 5 base weight and large elevation gains, I go to the flats.

Bottom line, there is no perfect shoe for every condition. Plus you have to go barefooted or wear the Vibrams a lot to condition your feet and muscles. This not a realistic solution for most people.

Lastly, as you pointed out… hiking is not running. I think that lighter shoes are better for us than heavy boots. But going too light could have diminishing returns.

[W I S N E R !]

I think Cameron makes a very good point about asphalt and concrete; I've lived it.

When first beginning to train for marathons/distance running, I did 90% of my running on trails, with long runs of up to 50K.
Then I decided to run the Los Angeles Marathon (I needed to have an "official" marathon finish for entry into an upcoming trail ultra. This would be the 7th time I ran 26.2 or further).

26.2 miles of L.A. asphalt later, I felt pretty good.
And quite suddenly, the next day I couldn't walk. I thought I broke my 5th metatarsal. It turned out to be tindinitis.
I had logged tons of mileage in training for this marathon injury free – on trails. I'm convinced it was 26.2 miles of asphalt monotony that killed my foot.

This isn't to say I had (or have) the best form. But experience tells me that the repetition of asphalt hammers home any irregularities in stride, mechanics, etc. I was also a heel striker then, wearing traditional shoes to control "overpronation". (I use quotes because I'm currently convinced I run better when I allow my foot to pronate rather than stop it)

Not a single running coach or doctor with a "traditional" approach had anything to say that helped my running or my injury. Everyone kept recommending even bigger shoes and more support, maybe $300 custom orthotics.

My foot injury bummed me out and kept reoccurring with any attempt at distance. So I decided what the f@ck, might as well reinvent what I do and try something different. I discovered the plethora of blogs, websites, papers, and runners espousing minimal footwear and barefoot running. What they said made sense so I tried.

It took getting used to.

My first barefoot runs on grass and road/trail runs in racing flats left my achilles and calves feeling like steel cables ready to pop. But I worked into it slowly and patiently and stretched a lot.

And now I'm running fine with a completely new style.
Last Saturday I ran 23 miles of trail with nearly 5000 feet of elevation gain- sockless in trail running flats (NB MT100). I ran six miles one day later and felt just fine.
I ran 20 miles the weekend before last.

I'm recovering faster, don't have nearly the same joint soreness as before, and I've gotten slightly faster.

I've averaged 40 miles/week for a month, building from 25/week a few months ago. I'm shooting for a 50K race in early April, a 50 mile race a month after that.

Everything's going well so far- contrary to just about every bit of conventional running wisdom out there. And keep in mind, I'm no lightweight- I'm 6'2" and currently weigh 195 lbs. Any running shoe salesman would tell me I need every shoe gimmick, orthotic, and stability device in the world.

As for backpacking, shoes with heel lift really bug me now. I'm too used to a flat, neutral platform. I see no reason I can't backpack distance in flats, especially with an UL load.

There's a ton of hype currently surrounding the barefoot/minimal craze. But for me, there's something to it. But if you're running well, walking well, all in traditional shoes, why change? Throwing away your big stability shoes doesn't turn you into a Tarahumara. Do what works for you, what makes sense for you.

[Author]

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