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Professional Backpacking…..


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  • #1553949
    Jack H.
    Member

    @found

    Locale: Sacramento, CA

    Uhhh… even if you factor in those perks (but don't include nebulous non-monetary perks like quality of life) Outward Bound pays poorly.

    #1553956
    David Olsen
    Spectator

    @oware

    Locale: Steptoe Butte

    jackfl-

    Well said. Having no rent, dependents and being young and
    healthy, I managed to save more money while working as an
    OB instructor than I do now.

    Room and board and medical care is included in the job,
    and there is no place to spend money in the wilds.

    One does need a plan B for when you want to have a family
    etc. Some move into administration, others find their skill
    set (problem solving, personnel, teaching, etc.) is easily
    transferred to other work. Several co-workers got into
    Harvard grad school in education with their OB experience.
    Several others went back to school and became MD's. Many
    already had a career as teachers, geologists etc.

    Working with at-risk populations can be a well paying job
    too with the kind of economic benefits of a guberment
    employee. I found I was limited by the stress of it all
    tho.

    #1553973
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    "Uhhh… even if you factor in those perks (but don't include nebulous non-monetary perks like quality of life) Outward Bound pays poorly."

    I disagree. At least in NZ where an instructor earns gross $35,000 PA, plus accommodation (including partner and children if applicable), meals while working (ie three weeks out of four), utilities, health care etc…Almost all the money you earn can be saved…something not possible in a MUCH better paying job if you had to cover all your living expenses out of your salary. That, and one week off every four, plus two whole months off each year to play or relax. Oh yeah, and really good discounts on gear ;) No need to knock OB for the way they treat or pay their staff, but it's not a career unless you move into management, which would defeat the purpose of seeking a job in the outdoors.

    #1553984
    Ryan Linn
    Member

    @ryan-c-linn

    Locale: Maine!

    "At least in NZ where an instructor earns gross $35,000 PA, plus accommodation (including partner and children if applicable), meals while working (ie three weeks out of four), utilities, health care etc"

    I haven't looked at how much Outward Bound instructors make in the US, but that seems like a lot for any kind of outdoor work. I may have to check it out :)

    I agree with Lynn on the bonus of room & board. Last year I worked for Americorps… $225 per week, which is less than a lot of summer seasonal jobs I've had, but without having to pay for food and housing (for part of the year), I was able to put away a hefty amount of money for the PCT this year. The money you spend on food and an apartment adds up after a while. Not to mention living at work oftentimes gets rid of the necessity for a car.

    Being in the woods does help with saving your money up, too, but if you've got some serious self control you can do just as well when you're not out in the woods. It helps to have a plan or something to look forward to (like the PCT for me, or buying a new piece of gear, or whatever).

    #1553995
    Elena Lee
    BPL Member

    @lenchik101

    Locale: Pacific Northwest (USA)

    Was reading this whole post and it is reminiscent of some of my personal struggles brought about while coping with the new realities of the society i chose to live in 9 years ago…

    I'm not an American, but i've lived here long enough, and through the experiences on both sides i think i can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I came from an educated family from the former Soviet Union, where the standards of living were very simple. Things like mortgage, health insurance and retirement savings were just words with no meaning. Yet, our lives in many aspects, were more free and enriched, but less assured. I find American people pay too much respect to the preaching about the conventional mortgaged home ownership, retirement, health insurance hard work… etc, which is just a way to contribute to this huge capitalistic machine that makes one person rich, and the others enslaved to these "values" marketed to them. No, I'm not saying people shouldn't be personally responsible for others. But think for a moment, if you were given a free home to live in, and guaranteed health care, would you be living differently? Will your decisions about work, free time, relationships be different? What if you had much less expenses, and your children would take care of you once you age, would you still be putting $ into 401 or would you rather give it to your children, or even better, to those less fortunate children that have no place to live?

    Once you change the variables, the equation changes as well. The variables, however, can be unknown.

    On the other hand, i have witnessed a number of people here in the US who do get the bigger picture of life. I've seen a woman building her own house from the scratch in Hawaii with the help of others. She was a single mother, and had no permanent job. Her house would cost her about 30K, and it's much better shape than many houses here in Seattle you can buy for 1/2 million, on a 30 year mortgage with a hefty down payment. I've met a community college professor, who spent his early years in South America climbing and holding seasonal jobs as a fruit picker, later married an Argentinean and moved to Arizona to teach math and be a search and rescue ranger in Grand Tetons during the summers. This past week, i met a Himalayan mountain guide who spends 6 months living and guiding in the mountains, and helping local people with sustainable development, living supplies and other charity work. He also holds a PhD which I guess was a way to fulfill his intellectual drive.

    What I've gathered from my experience with other people, is that once you put aside the stereotypes of your society, the propaganda, and your own fear of becoming that "black sheep" or a burden on others, you would find the courage of following your dreams, and other people who will follow you. You do though need to possess a talent, the ability to work hard, and the strength of character to face the hardships of the kind of life you've chosen. Only the future will show whether you'd find happiness, but perhaps, the happiness lies in the journey?

    There are definite trade offs associated with free, non commercial living. And to accept that, one must change from within. One must accept that less is more.

    so just by asking this question tells me you haven't spent a lot of time of inward thinking… i think you should already know the answers for yourself, because if you are passionate about what you want, you'll find out the answers the hard way. There is no "Professional backpacking for dummies" book that can truly help you. Nike puts it well: "Just do it".

    #1554138
    Diane “Piper” Soini
    BPL Member

    @sbhikes

    Locale: Santa Barbara

    Wow, Elena,

    That is a lovely post. And it illuminates some of my own observations on my journey in life. I'm at the point where I'm starting to really understand that when a variable here or there is changed, it opens up a new understanding about the choices made in life. Thanks for putting it into words.

    #1554249
    Jeff Moody
    Member

    @bigtiki

    "How is that any different to someone sponging off a free clinic?"

    Actually there is a big difference and by your comment it shows that you really don't understand how insurance works. Insurance is based on risk that is spread out among groups or pools of people. While Sarah might not have paid into the pool $100,000 the risk and frequency of her type of pregnancy was factored into the premium paid by all members of that group or pool. Thus the risk was spread out among all the paying members of that group or pool. Keyword being PAYING members.

    So, someone using a system that they have not paid into and having the cost of that use absorbed by those who have paid into system is not the "same deal" as someone using a system they paid into in the first place.

    #1554376
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    "Actually there is a big difference and by your comment it shows that you really don't understand how insurance works."

    "So, someone using a system that they have not paid into and having the cost of that use absorbed by those who have paid into system is not the "same deal" as someone using a system they paid into in the first place."

    I fully understand how insurance works. But I also understand that Sarah did not pay a cent into that insurance pool, nor did her husband. It was her husband's employer that paid. How is that different to a worker paying taxes (or in this case the employer paying a premium) that go towards helping out with health care of someone who is not employed and not paying taxes (in this case Sarah)? Morally, ethically, I see no difference except in the case of private insurance, the insurance premiums are set so the insurer always makes a profit, making the 'taxes' paid by the employer much higher than they need to be.

    #1554393
    David Lutz
    Member

    @davidlutz

    Locale: Bay Area

    Ms. Tramper……I think you are still missing one key element.

    The insurance benefit provided by an employer to an employee and his/her dependents is provided in return for their labor. The employee "earns" the coverage by working.

    The poster with the pregnancy issue absolutely "paid" for every nickel of the benefit she received.

    How does a person who does not pay taxes "earn" the coverage provided by other taxpayers? Simply by being alive and living here? How does that person contribute?

    The health insurance benefit is non-cash compensation like paid sick days, vacations, etc., but it is compensation nonetheless.

    Incidentally, employer-provided health insurance is a sticky situation in the US. Widespread employer-provided health insurance was institued during WWII as a means to attract labor during a time of wage controls (adopted by a Democratic administration, of course).

    I could tell you all how to fix the health insurance system, but I have to eat lunch right now, and take a nap. ; )

    #1554402
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    Well naturally I would say that you were missing the point. The only thing Sarah did to "earn" her cover was to marry someone who has good cover. Well, I have "earned" my health cover by living in a country where we consider health care as a basic human right, not a privilege of class or who you marry. I have also 'earned' my health care in a monetary way, as I pay taxes, but that's what keeps the system working. There is just no way I would begrudge anyone equal health care just because they are unemployed (as for instance many solo mothers with 2 or 3 children under 5 are).

    I guess you would label me a socialist, but I'm really just a human rights advocate. I strongly feel there are some things that really don't work under the free market capitalist model, and health care is clearly one of them.

    As someone who lives outside the US (but was raised in America), it is a difficult culture to understand where one has the "right" to bear arms, but does not have a "right" to fair and equal health, education and welfare.

    #1554409
    David Olsen
    Spectator

    @oware

    Locale: Steptoe Butte

    "The insurance benefit provided by an employer to an employee and his/her dependents is provided in return for their labor. The employee "earns" the coverage by working.

    The poster with the pregnancy issue absolutely "paid" for every nickel of the benefit she received.
    "

    So if you make the "right" decision and hitch your wagon
    to a larger corporation for your employment, you can "earn"
    good health insurance?

    If you decide to work for a small
    business or be self employed, you MAY be able to "earn" some insurance coverage, but because you don't have the
    bargaining power of the larger companies you end up
    subsidizing $100,000 pregnancies.

    #1554429
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    Bingo

    And I am far from ignorant of how insurance works. My mother has been an actuarial for 35 years, and I know a lot of their dirty little secrets. the insurance company NEVER loses, so unexpectedly big claims are paid for by the little guy.

    I have started this as a separate topic in chaff, as it's surely wandered well OT!

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=26871

    #1554519
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    "I guess you would label me a socialist, but I'm really just a human rights advocate. I strongly feel there are some things that really don't work under the free market capitalist model, and health care is clearly one of them."

    I've never understood how folks think you'll get better health care when it's a for-profit endeavor. I mean, the less benefit you get, the better bottom line for the insurance company. And the company's management is under obligation to the company and shareholders, not to the public/sick/injured.

    Just listen/read the transcript of Nixon and (Halderman?) when they were talking about creating HMOs in the first place!

    And no, Lynn, I'd simply label you a caring human.

    #1554572
    David Lutz
    Member

    @davidlutz

    Locale: Bay Area

    Doug, I respectfully disagree. I would rather buy private insurance any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    True, management has a responsibilty to it's shareholders, but it best discharges it's responsibility by serving it's clientele well. We need more competition, not less. Competition is restricted now because of arbitrary legislative mandates. I ought to be able to buy insurance from a company in Ohio if I think that best meets my needs. If I don't get satisfactory service, I should be able to switch.

    I have extensive experience working with public agencies and we have been heavy users of our private medical coverage. The public agencies are routinely a PITA, the private medical coverage administration, no problem.

    Maybe it's just me.

    On a separate note, in defense of corporate insurance, I know someone who works for a large old-school very profitable company. They laid off a guy through a RIF and he had a heart attack the next day. They then reinstated him so he could maintain his health benefits.

    They didn't have to do that, they just felt it was the right thing to do.

    I'm just saying that corporations are not always the bogeyman.

    I intend no personal animosity, just offering another viewpoint.

    #1554581
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    "Doug, I respectfully disagree."

    Well, David, that's more than I get from my staff, so I'll take anything respectfully wherever I can get it, disagreement or not! ;-)

    "True, management has a responsibilty to it's shareholders, but it best discharges it's responsibility by serving its clientele well."

    In theory I agree. But in practice, I don't think it works that way far too often. The negative, even horrific stories are far too numerous.

    "We need more competition, not less."

    If we're not going to have single payer, which is my choice, then I agree completely that more competition is necessary. That's why I'm exceptionally disheartened that the public option is now off the table. Without it there will never be any real competition.

    "I'm just saying that corporations are not always the bogeyman."

    I agree with this as well. After all, corporations don't kill people, people kill people….. ;-)

    "I intend no personal animosity, just offering another viewpoint."

    And none taken at all. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me! In fact I enjoy hearing from people who disagree with me, from people who have information I don't or a personal perspective I can't (I really enjoyed Mary's and Dean's posts in the concurrent thread for that very reason), and people who make me think about things in a way I might not have considered. Some have even changed my mind.

    All the best,

    Doug

    #1554635
    Andrew Skurka
    BPL Member

    @askurka

    I'm glad to have seen Chris jump in earlier, and since I was mentioned a few times and since I think I have something to add to this discussion, I'll say a few things.

    I think the term "professional backpacker" needs clarification. There are a few different types of people who could fit the bill:

    1- Someone who actually gets paid to backpack or to, more likely, perform work directly related to their backpacking. Chris Townsend is a good example — he gets paid for the books and photos that come out of his trips.

    2- Someone whose job requires a lot of backpacking. A NOLS instructor, field geologist or wildlife biologist are good examples.

    3- Someone who backpacks a lot and spends the rest of their time earning money so they can go backpacking again.

    If you want to become a "professional backpacker," you kind of need to think about what's doable for you. Most thru-hikers go with #3 — they work during the winter and go hiking during the summer, and they try to keep their expenses to a minimum year-round. #2 offers a nice balance — you spend a lot of time outside and you get paid for it, but you don't have as much flexibility since you still technically have a job. #1 is really hard to achieve — I don't advise people to go that route.

    It took me about 3 years and about 10,000 miles of hiking before I was making any money through my backpacking. It took me 5 years and about 20,000 miles to get to the point where I didn't need to supplement my backpacking income with other work. Of course, whether one makes it as a professional really has nothing to do with how many miles you've hiked or how good of a hiker you are — look no further than Dean Karnazes to see a great example of someone who is not the best at what they do but who has developed a substantially larger profile than any other ultra runner.

    For those of you who are interested in pursuing path #1, here are some thought on income sources:

    1- Sponsors. Great when they're around, but don't count on them — marketing plans change, budgets get axed.

    2- Public speaking. Flexible and can pay well once you're experienced, polished, and have name recognition.

    3- Guiding/instructing. Fun and a new challenge, but conflicts with your own summer-oriented trip schedule.

    4- Content development. Takes a long time to develop yourself as an author and/or photographer. And as Chris pointed out, it still requires a lot of time in front of a computer.

    Overall, then, it's probably not the job it's dreamed up to be. If you just want to backpack full-time and not do anything else, then you better grow a money tree in your backyard.

    #1554875
    647575757 3
    Member

    @686425

    Thanks for the insight. I am looking towards the NOLS route. Also, thank you for not mentioning insurance. A welcome change from most of the posts.

    #1556897
    Benjamin Crowley
    Member

    @benajah

    Locale: West, now

    In reality, if you are single, no kids, etc, there are many ways to make a living backpacking. Once you decide you want to have kids though, the money really becomes much more important, as does providing a stable home so they don't bounce from school to school, etc.
    Its really about making an overall lifestyle decision with plenty of trade offs.

    #1556905
    EndoftheTrail
    BPL Member

    @ben2world-2

    "It's really about making an overall lifestyle decision with plenty of trade offs."

    I wholeheartedly agree with Ben Crowley. We are in much more control of our lives than we think (or acknowledge) — esp. earlier on in life.

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