SURVEY: Ultralight Hunting at Backpacking Light

[Nick Gatel]

BPL has a wide mission statement.

And Backpacking has a pretty precise definition for each of us; from our own perspective. So there is usually going to be a diverse opinion from each person.

For example, I have no interest in pack rafting. Don't even read the posts. To me it is not what I view as part of the backpacking 'genre.' But I own an 11 foot Mercury Quicksilver inflatible raft with a small motor. It is a different sport for me, with different goals. I don't belong to any boat forum, nor do I read about it.

In a previous life, I was an expert marksman with both hand guns and rifles. I no longer have any interest in firearms at all, and haven't owned one in many years. I have no interest in hunting. I have no problem with people owning and using firearms as long as it is within the law. I avoid hiking areas during hunting season (to include bow hunting). I do read these posts sometimes.

I have a fleeting interest in trout fishing. Only with my wife when camping with our tent trailer. I no longer have any interest in fishing when backpacking, as it does not align with my current packbacking goals and enjoyment of the sport (BPing). I do read the posts on backcountry fishing occassionally.

I have an intense passion for what I think backpacking is. And my view of packpacking is not identical to any one person's view, but it is more aligned to a majority of folks here, than in any other venue.

BPL cannot be all things to all people. We share ideas and seek answers to questions we have. That is it. If you do not agree with something, then don't read the article or the post. Don't try to force your opinion on others. And please don't call someone who disagrees with you a name.

BPL is not a forum to push one's view of the wilderness, philosophy, idealogy, or political ideals. If you wish to do so, there are organizations such as the Sierra Club, ACLU, Greenpeace, etc. that may welcome your contribution.

I enjoy BPL. I like to participate. I like to share ideas, if I have something positive to add. And I am opinionated. I state my opinion, and it may upset others, but I just leave it at that. I never try to force my opinion on others. I don't know everything and appreciate the willingness of others to share their knowledge and expertise with me and everyone else here. If a post goes sideways, I stop following it. It is that simple.

I am not going to stop coming here if an article or post is not aligned to what I think backpacking is.

[Anonymous]

"Oh, except for ultralight hunting and anything having to do with guns" would be an immature approach to dealing responsibly with the topic. Same with eliminating the discussion of guns in the context of backcountry use on the forums: stupid!"

Well said. I just wish that the discussion did not inevitably drift over into handguns, which I do vehemently oppose, except in the military and law enforcement. It's hard to see where they have much application for serious hunting, in spite of all the posts to the contrary. Just my personal feeling and not a call to ban discussion of them, or any other subject for that matter. Unfortunately there was no way to get that nuance into the survey, but it's a minor shortcoming.

[P. P.]

Tom, in answer to your comment, "I just wish that the discussion did not inevitably drift over into handguns, which I do vehemently oppose, except in the military and law enforcement."
I felt the same way for most of my life. I now carry sometimes and usually concealed (legally). My reasons are:

Easier to carry on backpacking trips than a rifle (and quicker to access than a rifle when needed).
Protection from large predators (be they animal or human)
Protection for my pack animals when in use or the ability to 'put them down' mercifully on the trail if the need arises.

I do not hunt but I have no objection to others hunting for food.

[Anonymous]

"I felt the same way for most of my life. I now carry sometimes and usually concealed (legally)"

I understand, PP. I just wish it wasn't felt to be necessary. A sad sign of the times as regards potential self defense. Unnecessary, IMO, for putting down pack animals and next to useless for large non-human predators. A rifle or shotgun could easily be carried for either contingency if you are using pack animals. For backpacking, I suppose a handgun is better than nothing against a bear or cougar but the most likely anticipated contingency, I'll bet, is human predators. I was just trying to indicate that the survey could have been more nuanced than to change anybody's mind. Thanks much for replying in such a civil manner. It proves that this topic actually can be discussed without degenerating into a flame war.

[P. P.]

Tom,
"Unnecessary, IMO, for putting down pack animals and next to useless for large non-human predators. A rifle or shotgun could easily be carried for either contingency if you are using pack animals."

Easier to carry than a shotgun or rifle as I mentioned in my post. I would not want to have to cut the throat of a faithful packing companion. It ain't easy. Been there, done that.
As far as next to useless for large non-human predators, I guess it depends on the caliber. I carry one large enough for most contingencies.
Thank you, Tom. The following is not directed to you:
I've been on both sides of the issue. It is quite subjective. You bring your own thoughts and experiences to the debate. It's too easy to dismiss an argument simply because it is out of your realm of experience.
If you argue in a thoughtful and respectful manner you can bring information and depth to a discussion.
We rarely, if ever, change minds on this forum so let's just play nice and remember that we probably have WAY more in common than not.
Just my .02.

[Brian UL]

"I believe that everyone has a right to carry a gun in the backcountry, for any reason, where permissible by law."

How is believing that a law abiding citizen carring legally where and when its legal an extreme view?
And wouldn't the opposite of not allowing anyone to carry be to REQUIRE that everyone must carry?

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I just did the survey….seems good.

In my opinion, the pak-rifle clearly seems to fit within the mission of BPL. Those who are opposed to the pak-rifle review seem to be opposed because of a larger pre-existing opposition to guns, rather than being opposed b/c it's not within BPL's mission statement.

Fishing, hunting and gathering are all fascinating avenues to explore, as they push the limits of pack weight, unsupported hiking and survival skills. The key in my mind is making sure it's done sustainably.

[Miguel Arboleda]

Agreed. More interesting if more people would submit their survey (more is better, in this instance, IMO). The survey is far from perfect, yes. But it's a start. Perhaps the results can lead to a more comprehensive survey, or a better worded survey, etc.

True, but if the survey doesn't address the grey area that my own thoughts are based on, then it doesn't reflect what I think, and therefore would skew the survey results in a false direction (and by false, I'm not implying that it will fall in favor of pro-gun enthusiasts). To me, and I don't mean this in a critical way, the survey sounds like it was written by someone who supports guns. That's fine, but what about the reasons or caveats that someone against guns might have for their opinions? I think the survey should have been passed around among Ryan's anti-gun staff and a little bit further refined by their input. It would have made the survey more balanced and a truer measure of what the BPL member base really think. For instance, for question 5, to write: "I believe that guns should not be allowed in the backcountry for any reason.", doesn't allow for people who might have strong opinions about guns, but also see certain times when guns are necessary.

This is not to say I am criticizing Ryan, far from it. I think it's great that he is approaching the whole thing at all, instead of letting it just flounder on its own. I think it's important for all of us to realize that the people here have many opinions and views, but that doesn't mean we all can't get along (unless Dean carries that hugging thing too far! o_0 ). It's the mark of a good community when there is diversity and the community can still carry on with robust vitality.

But I'll follow your advice, Douglas, and submit the survey. Just know that the survey reflects little of what I think. I think more pro-gun members will come away feeling comfortable with it than anti-gun people. Just try it: take the survey once as a pro-gun advocate, then again as an anti-gun advocate and see how you feel in the end.

[Peter Sustr]

I just took the survey and just wanted to add something.
As far as question #5 goes; I don't like seeing people carrying guns in the backcountry but, I am not against people having them. I just feel that from my experience with 99% of the people who carry them, they are not real backpackers, do not practice LNT principles and tend to drink a lot while camping.

Because of the above, I would prefer that people would feel like they don't need to take firearms into the backcountry. I have had incidents in the backcountry when these guys get drunk and start shooting there guns into the air, firing at things that move in the dark and are just a menace.

I support BPL and their mission. If you publish hunting related materials I will just choose not to read them, thats America, I can click on it or not.

[P. P.]

Peter,
I've had those experiences, too. That is one of the main reasons that I was opposed to guns in general for a long time. I've come to realize that most gun owners are pretty responsible. There are a few that spoil things for all of us but for every loud, drunken gun-toting maniac, there are probably 100 (or more) sane, responsible gun-toting citizens.
I'm one of them. Just another old, gun-toting granny on the trail ;-)

[John Frederick Anderson]

I just did the survey, and think it was well written except for question 5, which was too general and polarized.
I didn't renew my subscription here because, amongst many reasons, the gun issue has no interest for me, and the site is very North American biased, rather than global.
I suggest a forum in 'Off Piste' for hunting, as there is for fishing, for those, like me, who either object to guns and backpacking, or have no interest in it.
I think the gun issue is particularly North American, and to most people outside the USA, it is regarded with a mix of humour and disgust, depending on the severity of your position.
Making the site more global, including and promoting chapters from other areas of the world that enjoy backpacking would keep the general focus on backpacking.
It's not my site, and I'll contribute help and advice based on my experience in my area as and when I can, but more focus on hunting and arms would see me drift away further as this change in focus doesn't apply to me, or others around the world who don't hike in North America.
2c fred

[Miguel Arboleda]

Very well put, John. As a non-American I feel just as you do. The suggestion of chapters from other areas of the world is a good one. And I, too, would drift away from BPL if guns start becoming a bigger focus. The arguments that a lot of Americans make for everything in their country being the standard that everyone else here must abide by just doesn't go down well for non-Americans. Perhaps BPL wants this to be a US-focused site, in spite of the many non-Americans here. Well, as John says, this is not my site, so I won't say here nor there about it, but it is something to consider. It should be noted, though, that for most of us outside the States the debate over carrying guns, even backpacking, is a non-issue. We simply never talk about it among ourselves and don't see a need to. To suggest, in our local discussions, bringing a gun on a hiking trip would most likely be regarded as not a little bizarre, if not downright shocking.

[BlackHatGuy]

"To me, and I don't mean this in a critical way, the survey sounds like it was written by someone who supports guns."

It probably was, but I think it's probably more correct to say that the survey was written by someone not thinking about the survey, but rather thinking about the gun issue.

"I think the survey should have been passed around among Ryan's anti-gun staff and a little bit further refined by their input. It would have made the survey more balanced and a truer measure of what the BPL member base really think."

Great thought. You're right, I believe it could have improved the survey, perhaps immensely.

"I think it's great that he is approaching the whole thing at all, instead of letting it just flounder on its own. I think it's important for all of us to realize that the people here have many opinions and views, but that doesn't mean we all can't get along (unless Dean carries that hugging thing too far! o_0 )."

Also agree. Dean, dude, what is it with all that hugging! ;-)

"But I'll follow your advice, Douglas, and submit the survey. Just know that the survey reflects little of what I think."

Thanks! I think it's important that as many BPLers as possible submit it. As far as question 5, I agree, rather poorly worded and doesn't give me a chance to 'vote' how I feel about guns. So I just didn't answer 5, only 1-4. And I think that it was those three short words, 'for any reason,' that are causing most of the issues with question 5. Without those it would have been a much better question, and one I would have answered (though the choices still wouldn't have really captured my thoughts on the issue).

Take care

[donald buckner]

I took the survey and I hope it helps you Ryan with answers. I personally would welcome an entire slice, section or Forum dedicated to backpacking light while hunting. I wish I had the guts to stick my neck out financially some way but I believe there is a large amount of interest and therefore a potentially large market for the manufacture and marketing of gear that would make hunting in the backcountry a less strenuous and lightweight endeavor. Most hunters would love to get away from the crowds and enjoy the peace and tranquility that can only happen if you are willing to put in the work to get away from it all. While it would still involve a lot of work and effort, backpacking light as a hunter venturing forth would certainly help make this an encouraging proposition for those looking for a great adventure and that were in reasonable shape but not necessarily decathaletes. (Like me) P.S. I really enjoy reading the posts about all this because I can see some really good character coming through on both sides of the issue. It is encouraging to see the quality of people that post on this site. Same goes for the BPL staff.

[Mike M]

I was surprised to see what a firestorm followed Ryan's review, maybe I shouldn't haven been. Living in Montana we're very blessed with a lot of nice areas to hike. Blessed with a lot of nice areas to fish. Add berry and mushroom harvesting to the blessing we enjoy. We are also blessed with an abundance of game animals, game birds and the habitats to support them. Montana is not unique, there are many, many other places equally blessed

I've devoted 20 years in my career as a game warden to help insure my children and grandchildren (and other's children and grandchildren) have the same opportunities I had to hike, fish, gather and hunt. If they choose not to, that's fine, it is indeed a choice- it's the opportunity that I want to insure.

It seems to to me that we all share the pursuit of being in the wild (for many of the same reasons and for many different reasons) and we should respect those pursuits, and try not to infringe on them. We can agree to disagree, but I feel a discussion about equipment and techniques on ultralight hunting is no more out of reason than one on ultralight photography, ultralight rafting or ultralight fishing.

my .02

[Ryan Jordan]

Hi Folks,

Here is a summary of the survey results. Please note this was not a comprehensive sampling, and solicitation was ONLY made from the forum here. That in and of itself might have self-selected for those who were passionate on either side, but I thought our response from those in the middle provided good insight as well. I'm drawing no dogmatic conclusions from this, and neither should you.

—

1. Do you believe that backcountry hunting with ultralight hunting equipment is consistent with Backpacking Light's Mission "…to promote multi-day, self-sufficient ("backpackable") backcountry travel in lightweight style?

Yes – 78%
No – 22%

2. Do you believe that the recent Pak-Rifle review reflected Backpacking Light's Mission?

Yes (I read the article) – 60%
Yes (but I did not read the article) – 20%
No (I read the article) – 16%
No (but I did not read the article) – 4%

3. How do your personal activities in the backcountry align with hunting? (check all that apply)

I hunt, but not as part of my backpacking activities. – 22%
I hunt while I backpack, for food to bring home. 12%
I hunt while I backpack, for food while I'm backpacking. – 10%
I do not hunt while I backpack. – 70%

4. What is your personal position about backcountry hunting?

I hunt, and would support a very small amount of editorial content about ultralight hunting techniques and gear at Backpacking Light. – 32%

I do not hunt, but would support a very small amount of editorial content about ultralight hunting techniques and gear at Backpacking Light. – 47%

I hunt, but would not support editorial content about ultralight hunting techniques and gear at Backpacking Light. – 2%

I do not hunt, and would not support editorial content about ultralight hunting techniques and gear at Backpacking Light. – 19%

5. Which of the following statements most accurately describe your feelings about guns in the backcountry?

I believe that everyone has a right to carry a gun in the backcountry, for any reason, where permissible by law. – 63%

I believe that guns should not be allowed in the backcountry for any reason. – 14%

I do not have a strong opinion either way about this issue. – 23%

[Rod Lawlor]

Hi Ryan.

Could you tell us how many respondents you had to the survey?

Also, can you let us know how you apportioned non responses, especially to question five?

Thanks, Rod

[Ryan Jordan]

Hi Rod, we had about 140 respond to the survey, and only 5 or 6 skipped #5. Everyone answered all of the rest of the questions.

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