Topic

layering in the Pacific NW


Forum Posting

A Membership is required to post in the forums. Login or become a member to post in the member forums!

Home Forums Gear Forums Gear (General) layering in the Pacific NW

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 22 posts - 51 through 72 (of 72 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1353302
    Jeff Black
    Member

    @thehikingdude

    I’m heading out tomorrow morning, Friday, to Eagle Creek in the Columbia River Gorge for 3 days. I have a Frogg Togg rain jacket, Montbell Wind Jacket and a Montbell UL Thermawrap jacket along with a OR Sombrero. Wish me lots of luck!!! I’m wishing I had a light weight umbrella at this point since they are now predicting thunderstorms on Sat morning, not to imply that I would stand out in the thunderstorm holding an umbrella – somehow I don’t think that would be such a good idea. Now I just have to hope that the seal job I did on my new Rainbow does it’s job.

    My current quandry, do I bring the Frogg Togg rain pants or not? Thoughts?

    -the hiking dude

    #1353304
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    My current quandry, do I bring the Frogg Togg rain pants or not? Thoughts?

    -the hiking dude

    Hehehe– you runnin’ a Frogg Toggs museum or did you buy ’em to use ’em? <grin>

    If you don’t use them, you carry a couple extra ounces; if you need them, you’re gonna be REAL happy you have them. Save the heroics for August!

    #1353305
    Jeff Black
    Member

    @thehikingdude

    I suppose I should bring the pants. The extra weight isn’t going to kill me.

    Now the thought that keeps going through my head, now that I’m down to less than 25 lbs. is do I wear my big Vasque boots or try out my new Keen Targhee light hikers? In the past I never would have even considered using a light trek shoe, but with all the reading I’ve done re: ultralight backpacking it really has me thinking. It’s going to be wet and muddy, am I crazy to be considering this?

    -jeff

    #1353307
    John Carter
    Member

    @jcarter1

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    Please post on your journey when you return! I’ve only made it to Tunnel Falls. Once three summers ago and once two Christmases ago (my in-laws live in Portland). Be careful of the frost that forms on the exposed rocky sections of trail. When I hiked in Trion Creek SP this past Christmas in a drizzle, I appreciated having my DriDucks pants for added windbreak and warmth. Even though I got a little sweat dampened, I liked knowing that I wasn’t getting any insulating layers wet. It also gives you the confidence to sit down without soaking your pants.

    Do you plan on returning via the PCT or Ruckle rigde (the left loop) or via Tanner Butte (the right loop)?

    #1353310
    Jeff Black
    Member

    @thehikingdude

    At this point the plan is to just hike in and out. I’m going with somebody else so we will be playing it somewhat by ear. I hiked just past Tunnel Falls to Crossover Falls, or whatever it’s called, 2 weeks ago just to scope things out. Not a single person was backpacking. I doubt that will change much in 2 weeks. I’m so excitied, the first backpacking trip of the year and my first ultralight trip as well. I’ve dropped 20+ lbs off my back which is very nice. I can’t “weight” to see the difference!!!!!

    -jeff

    #1353339
    Curt Peterson
    BPL Member

    @curtpeterson

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    Doug makes some great points. I think by this point in the discussion folks probably realize that getting wet is invevitable – the comfort and enjoyment will depend on how you manage it. I think folks also realize that there’s going to be a little weight penalty in the wet season. As noted earlier, even famous Ray added about 4 pounds to his 8 pound load when he did the PCT through Washington. Gear has changed a bit since then and I think that penalty could be a lot less now, but it’s still there if you plan on the West side of the range in the wet months and a “normal” forecast.

    Doug’s plug of a big tarp can’t be overstated. Especially in pair/group hiking. There’s nothing worse than spending every minute in a shelter – especially disheartening in a small shelter. When we were running trips with clients in ONP, we always carried a huge 12×12 tarp. It was light for the time, and it saved more than one trip. Huge tarp and a fire can go a loooong way to making a trip enjoyable. Hell, the rain is even a welcome addition in that setup – I love the sound of it beating on a tarp or tent.

    I’ve since kind of combined the big tarp and shelter into one and use a Hex 3 as my primary shelter. 1lb. 12oz. isn’t that unreasonable, and I can set it up just about anywhere, house a couple people, stay dry, sit up comfortably, and not feel like I’m trapped in a 7×4 square for 12+ hours in a stretch. If I was out with 3 or more people, though, I’d still be reaching for a big tarp and cover the entire camp social area.

    Now, to find an ultralight stool so I can stay off the soaked ground/logs…..

    Lastly, it’s not like this all year. We focus on it because we’re in it now and it greatly affects 9 months of our hiking, but summer here can be bone dry for weeks and weeks on end. You can also escape the wet stuff with just over an hour in the car. I just spent 3 days weekend before last near Potholes and Dry Falls and after a little wetness on the first day, spent it all in sunshine and sagebrush. There are even lots of microclimates on the westside – the NE Olympics typically get under 20 inches of rain a year – 10X less than the upper Hoh Valley.

    I’ve hiked in Zion, the Wasatch, the Uintas, Death Valley, California Coast, Northern Minnesota, Massachussetts, Connecticut, Colorado, Arizona, and a few I’m forgetting. I could live anywhere I want, but I still live and dream about Washington. So we might dwell on the rain and wet (keeps folks away :) but there’s no better place in the country in my opinion. Certainly it’s a candidate for the most diverse hiking in the country: all in the smallest state in the West.

    -Curt

    #1353341
    Daniel Schmidt
    Member

    @dschmidt

    Curt, could you give me your email? I have some more gear questions/rain practices but this thread has gotten a little too big. You can email me at danjschmidt at gmail.com.

    #1353347
    kevin davidson
    Member

    @kdesign

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson

    You can put that copius PNW moisture to work for you in Winter/Spring by skiing on it. Come on in, the snow camping is great!

    #1353373
    EndoftheTrail
    BPL Member

    @ben2world-2

    Sorry, I jumped in late… but I read up above:

    “Really, it doesn’t matter if you are wet, but it DOES matter if you are cold…”.

    But isn’t getting wet an easy and fast invitation to getting cold? When it’s cold, and you are little concerned about keeping dry, then you are just asking for lots more work to keep warm later, no?

    To me, the phrase above may be true in theory, but less so in practice — because the occurance of one can easily lead to the other. To me, it makes about as much sense as saying:

    “It doesn’t matter if you fall, but it DOES matter if you land”.

    Well, sure, falling is fine, it’s only the impact that hurts. But we all know that it matters to be careful not to fall in the first place. Ditto about the importance of keeping dry to help prevent getting cold.

    #1353375
    Miguel Arboleda
    BPL Member

    @butuki

    Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan

    Think about it, Ben. Let’s see if I can make some sense of this… Wetsuits work on the principle of using the water within the suit to keep the body warm. It’s not the water that is the problem (though shriveled skin and smell might be), but the release of heat (though it is true that with evoporative cooling or water that is not warmed up fast enough water can be a dangerous source of cooling). If you can keep the heat in it doesn’t matter if you get wet. That’s how the Scottish pertex/pile clothing system works. Most mammals do the same thing; water gets in but their fur keeps them warm. Sea otters, who don’t have a fat layer to keep them warm and who live in constant cold water, always get hard hit during oil spills because their system of warmth management relies heavily on their very fine fur trapping heat. Once the fur is compromised they succumb to hypothermia. As long as your clothing system is adequate to keep you warm even when wet it is not really that important if you are wet or not.

    Being wet might be uncomfortable, but is not life threatening if you stay warm.

    #1353377
    EndoftheTrail
    BPL Member

    @ben2world-2

    Yes, you have made sense of this. Thanks.

    The theory is correct as well — you can get wet, you just have to be able to keep warm.

    But I still disagree with the statement “it doesn’t matter if you are wet”. To me, it does matter — even if you can manage to “salvage the situation” at the end. Why? Because being careless about getting wet (because it supposedly doesn’t matter) can mean unneccesary work and risk to keep the body warm — steps not needed if one was careful about keeping dry in the first place.

    On the other hand, I think I am probably reading too much into that statement, in a context that was not intended…

    #1353380
    Miguel Arboleda
    BPL Member

    @butuki

    Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan

    How about this… I go running every day no matter what the weather or season. I never use a waterproof shell in the rain, I just let myself get wet, even in the winter during cold and very heavy rains. My runs usually last between an hour to two hours. I always make sure to check the temperature outside before heading out and adjust the heaviness of my insulation layer under my windshirt (a synthetic t-shirt in summer, and a long-sleeved, polypropelene base-layer shirt in winter and either a very thin windshell for summer or a microfleece-lined windshirt in winter) and wear either a schoeller baseball cap or OR Seattle Sombrero (the only waterproof piece I wear). During heavy rains I always get wet to the skin, but as long as I’m running I never get cold.

    Up in the mountains, of course, you have to be more careful, and when you stay dry it is much easier to control the warmth, so using a waterproof layer makes sense, but it is not necessary. In Scotland, where it is cold and always wet, a lot of walkers rely completely on the pertex/pile systems up in some pretty wild crags, using nothing else. Pertex/ pile is not waterproof, in fact it fails when proofed, because the breathability is crucial to the system working.

    Here are some other links talking about this topic:

    Clothing system suggestions in Britain

    IceBike

    Michael Connick, “A Different Approach to Clothing”

    #1353381
    EndoftheTrail
    BPL Member

    @ben2world-2

    Thanks, Miguel. I’ll check out your links.

    #1353526
    John Carter
    Member

    @jcarter1

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    Okay, so I’ve been giving some thought to my conclusion that in the Pacific Northwest, a Hammock is best for low lying, muddy forests, while a bivy is best for treeline and above. My conclusion was that I would bring both when hiking in both environments.

    Well, I’ve thought of a way that I might be able to combine both in order to save weight, and I’d like to run it by you all for some thoughts and criticism before I shell out the big bucks and make it.

    My thought is to use Epic Malibu as the hammock fabric (sold at http://www.thru-hiker.com as 1.7oz fabric). As a waterproof breathable fabric, it will still breathe on warmer days, but keep spind drift off the hammock body.

    When used as a bivy on the ground, I would simply flip the hammock upside down on top of a 1.5oz Gossamer Gear groundsheet. Assuming I make a Hennessy style entrance and netting, this would put the netting under my pad, and I would crawl in the opening. The opening is then where my head would be. I could use the velcro to close the Epic around me, so that only my head sticks out. This would give me an Epic cover to my quilt.

    Granted, I wouldn’t have a silnylon bathtub bottom to keep running water out, but my down quilt would have a WP/B layer to protect it from spin drift and tarp condensation. If I tuck the fabric under my pad and possibly add a buckle-and-strap mechanism under the pad, I should be able to make a good seal between the Epic and pad to keep the wind out.

    Here’s a few more details about my rationale: I am 210lbs, and Hennessy recommends I use 1.9oz fabric for my weight. However, several posters here and elsewhere seem to think 1.1oz fabric would be plenty strong. I’m still a little nervous about using 1.1oz fabric for my weight. Epic, at 1.7oz, is a good compromise between shaving a few ounces and trusting my setup to not rip. This weight is justified knowing it serves dual purpose as a bivy.

    I realize that Epic wets out under direct pressure, but since I use a pad, I’m not concerned about the waterproofness under the pad. I imagine the sides would still protect me from spind drift.

    My only major concern is that, by stretching the fabric in hammock mode, I permanently destroy the waterproofness. However, since Epic is individual-fiber encapsulated sil-nylon, as opposed to membrane-based or coated, my hope is that when the fabric shrinks back up when I get out of the hammock, the waterproof quality will return.

    So what do you think? What are the pros and cons? What am I missing? Is this the answer to enjoying both a hammock and bivy lifestyle with hardly any weight penalty for both?

    I suppose I could also make the equivalent of an Integral designs Salathe with ropes tied to the ends. The bottom would be silnylon, and the top Epic (to mimick an OverCover in Hennessy’s SuperShelter System). Half of the top fabric would fold back to expose mesh from head to waist.

    This way I could go to ground with the setup upright. The advantages would be useable mesh and a waterproof bottom in bivy mode. The disadvantage would be that it would likely get stuffier and clammier as a hammock in warmer weather. Someone at http://www.thru-hiker.com tried a silnylon-bottomed hammock and reported no increase in condensation/clamminess. But breathability might be comporomised when hanging in an afternoon breeze. Seems like the former makes a better hammock than bivy, whereas the latter makes a better bivy than hammock. Hmm…

    #1353598
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    > Okay, so I’ve been giving some thought to my conclusion that in the Pacific Northwest, a Hammock is best for low lying, muddy forests, while a bivy is best for treeline and above. My conclusion was that I would bring both when hiking in both environments.
    Well, I’ve thought of a way that I might be able to combine both in order to save weight, …

    What does puzzle me is how (nearly) everyone seems to have forgotten about tents.
    My silnylon tent has a sewn-in bucket groundsheet and full insect proofing. It is impermiable. It accomodates two people. It weighs 1.25 kg complete with poles – that’s about 2.75 lb for TWO people.
    So inside it we are immune to the weather. What’s more, with two people inside it and the ventilation a bit limited (up at the top of course), we have the equivalent of 120 watts of heater running from two bodies. When you use a tarp you lose all that heat. Yes, we can get a little condensation, but that does not run down onto the groundsheet, and we wipe it off with a rag. We can live and cook inside. Our gear starts to dry inside it, since we are generating all that heat.

    Sometimes, it pays to look at the alternatives.

    #1353625
    Jeff Black
    Member

    @thehikingdude

    I do agree, but I just found out the hard way that for me a silnylon tent will create so much condensation on the inside that it may as well be raining on the inside of the tent. This happened to me over the weekend while backpacking on Eagle Creek in Oregon; this was mainly due to very cold temps, rain off and on for over 24 hours and no breeze whatsoever. This was with my new Tarptent Rainbow. How I wished I would have had my BD Lighthouse tent with me to see how it would have compared. Any thoughts on how the Lighthouse would have done in the same situation. The worst part was watching rain drip through the seams of the back window of the Rainbow. I guess more sealing is in order.

    Am I right in thinking that this was the worst scenario for the Rainbow and not to be expected during normal use?

    -jeff

    #1353657
    Ron Bell / MLD
    BPL Member

    @mountainlaureldesigns

    Locale: USA

    Well, I guess I’ll say that I will have an SUL hammock system up on my site very soon. I’ve been testing it for a while. The hammock body is made of Epic, 1.7oz/sq/yd. It does work well. One great advantage is that since the hammock side walls are very highly water resistant to all blown or bounced rain a smaller tarp can be used and thus weight is saved. The lightest hammock / tarp combo will be right at 13oz total for both. Stay tuned.

    #1353660
    Douglas Frick
    BPL Member

    @otter

    Locale: Wyoming

    >I will have an SUL hammock system up on my site very soon.

    I’m really looking forward to that! I’ve extended the usable range of my hammock down below 0F and I sleep much better in a hammock, but my Hennessy Ultralight Explorer (hammock and tarp: 32.3 oz) still has a significant weight penalty over a UL tarp. It would be nice to reduce the weight by a full pound.

    #1353671
    Brian James
    Member

    @bjamesd

    Locale: South Coast of BC

    In always-raining, always-humid, always-cold conditions, sometimes you just bite the bullet and pitch a double-walled tent. Period.

    You can beat your head against hammocks, (cold wind under your bum, splatter on the bottom,) single-walled tents, (equal amount of rain falling from the ceiling as from the sky) and tarps (my sleeping pad is Noah’s Ark, floating on a sea of mud with a river running through it — do not move) for a long time before you come to the conclusion that the hassle, risk, and limited campsite options (i.e. no good ones for miles) are just not worth the extra 8-12 oz per partner. Sometimes.

    But the upside-down hammock sounds cool; I’d love to see it in action! I just hope it doesn’t combine the drawbacks of all three shelter methods mentioned above…

    #1353673
    Eric Noble
    BPL Member

    @ericnoble

    Locale: Colorado Rockies

    Great news! I can’t wait to see what you’ve come up with. Like Douglas, I use the HH Ultralight Explorer and wish it weighed less. My sons and I are potential customers.

    P.S. I am also interested in the Prophet 40. When will updated photos and information be posted?

    #1355468
    joseph daluz
    Member

    @jfdiberian

    Locale: Columbia River Gorge

    Are you from Galicia? I have a house in Ponte Ledesma, next to Santiago de Compostela!

    #1355470
    carlos fernandez rivas
    BPL Member

    @pitagorin

    Locale: Galicia -Spain

    who is gallego?

    I live in vigo

    carlos fernandez

Viewing 22 posts - 51 through 72 (of 72 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Forum Posting

A Membership is required to post in the forums. Login or become a member to post in the member forums!

Get the Newsletter

Get our free Handbook and Receive our weekly newsletter to see what's new at Backpacking Light!

Gear Research & Discovery Tools


Loading...