Made in China – A State of the Market Report

[Franco Darioli]

RELAX ???
I have just received an E Mail from Father Time.
Translated from Mandarin via Google.
( I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement)
Franco

[Miguel Arboleda]

Is that better, or should I tone it down even more?

Nah, we're good. I was rather surprised at your comment, since you usually write so eloquently and tolerantly. I may not always agree with you, but you've never come across as abrasive.

I don't like being talked down to.

I also felt certain parts of the comment seemed a tad superior, but I thought, "what the heck, not worth getting bent out of shape over". Besides, whether or not he actually felt superior or not has no bearing on how I feel about myself. Bush was a mite condescending, and in the beginning I used to get apoplectic over his comments, until I realized that it was not doing my health and peace of mind any good, so I just let go. Did wonders for my sleeping habits. I KNOW I'm superior to Bush! (@v@)

which usually means a bit of soapbox.

I've always loved the whole concept behind "Speaker's Corner" in Hyde Park, London. Anyone can have a go and say whatever they d@mn well wish and listeners can either stay and listen or simply walk off. I guess the same goes here.

Franco, you've been getting correspondence from Father Time?!?! Lucky dude! I keep getting Facebook chat requests from Ferryman Charon, asking me to liaison with his Shanghai factory over his claim that his newest boat wasn't built to specifications (insisting that only "Made in Hades" is acceptable). Problem is, I think he's confusing my Japanese with Cantonese! And he's not even offering me a special deal! (like "Lifetime supply of MLD shelters" or "Guaranteed burial spot in the Spectralite Palace"… let alone a free ferry ticket)

Now back to the subject at hand: What do you think of products made in Fiji? I recently bought a $1.00 twig hand broom manufactured in Fiji. (if you look real closely you can see that the upper portion of the broom's gathered end was only triple stitched, rather than quadruple stitched. Substandard, if you ask me). I hate the idea of losing out job opportunities to Fijians. Pretty soon they'll be OVERRUNNING THE WORLD! Can you imagine that? Being subjected to endless rounds of Yaqona?

(for those of you who lack the tongue-in-cheek gene, please be patient with me…)

[Roger Caffin]

> his claim that his newest boat wasn't built to specifications

Does it float?

Cheers

[Miguel Arboleda]

Does it float?

I'm not sure. I think he said something about trying out a new silnylon skin. I warned him about silnylon not being fully waterproof, but he's set on his ideas. He tells me it's just misting, but I don't know. I wouldn't be caught dead in one of his boats!

[Dean F.]

If I am at all eloquent, it is only through vicious editing…

But I agree that it is pointless to get bent over some post on the internet:

Rog sure broke me of THAT one…

Courtesy http://www.xkcd.com, best webcomic out there.

[Lynn Tramper]

I also pretty much agree with Robert's summing up of our biggest 'problem'. And China/India etc.. feels it's their turn to live the good life…and can you blame them? We've had our time in the sun, only to find it is not sustainable, leaving the developed countries in the unenviable situation of having to impose restrictions on developing countries due to environmental and resource concerns. Sigh. I too would like to receive a PM when someone finds a satisfactory solution.

One of the human rights issues that China often gets taken to task over is it's "one child" policy, yet that is what we, as a world, really need to be thinking about and moving towards. In a world of over 6 billion unsustainable consumers, should it really still be a 'human right' to produce as many offspring as you want? It's massively contentious, yet population control is, IMHO, the most pressing issue of all, followed by a consumerism economy that I am as guilty of supporting as anyone else.

For the record, I do not support China's methods of controlling population, merely the intention behind the policy. I think you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and that people in developing countries need strong incentives (as in rewards) to reduce their fertility, rather than being punished for having children.

[Miguel Arboleda]

Not only that, it's HUGELY presumptuous to think that people in the poorer countries don't know what they're doing or that your own standards or morality is better than theirs. The Chinese don't hate Chinese, and from their point of view the practical and very realistic and completely unsentimental view of over-population might actually be a better way of dealing with gigantic problems than the wishy-washy and often endlessly argumentative views of people in the West. I mean, is there anyone here, except perhaps Chinese and Indians, who even really KNOW what dealing with a population of a billion people who were starving until the programs were implemented really entails? Can you even get your mind around the number "1 billion"? I know I can't. (sometimes I have trouble counting to ten!)

[Anonymous]

"I have just received an E Mail from Father Time"

Don't believe a word he said; Mother Nature put him up to it.

[Anonymous]

"I wouldn't be caught dead in one of his boats!"

And the alternative is…?

[Anonymous]

"Can you even get your mind around the number "1 billion"? I know I can't."

It's easy. Just spend a week in either Calcutta or Shanghai. :)

[Robert Brookshire]

Dean Fellabaum said I was condescending. I'm sure Dean was right and I apologize. It's great that so many people are aware of these issues! My everyday experience suggests that most people are *not*, even those in very high places in society. I don't keep up very well with the day-to-day postings at BPL and am sorry if I missed all the good conversations on peak energy, etc.

As I read through the comments to this article, I was disappointed that nobody had brought this stuff up and couldn't help but do so myself. That was my first mistake, obviously. Before about 5 years ago, I know that *I* hadn't really thought about how human economics meshed with natural systems and was very happy when I was nudged into doing so. I should have kept quiet, but IMO an article about asian manufacturing has *EVERYTHING* to do with energy economics, because when I choose to buy a product my first priority probably shouldn't be where it's made but whether I really need it at all. However, my post was not really appropriate in this thread and I recognize that now. I was just so disappointed that nobody was talking about what *I* selfishly thought should be important here that I felt obliged to post.

When I said "think about it for yourself", I was trying to imply that I don't want you to listen to me or take my word for it. I was trying to convey the idea that your own conclusions and ideas were going to be different than mine. My intent was not that I know everything already, but that I never did find the bottom of that rabbit hole. I got as far as thinking about the invention of language itself and basically decided it was pointless to continue since there weren't any solutions down there (and later found that other people already wrote books about the invention of language so I was still reinventing the obvious). I certainly didn't invent any new ideas, but I did come up with some of them on my own and was very excited when I found out that other people were thinking about the same things. For me, the dollar=sunlight equation was indeed a revelation. They didn't teach me that in high school or college. I'm very glad that so many people are aware of this now and I won't bring it up again.

Again, I apologize for being a jerk. I was not trying to be. I guess it comes natural. I certainly wasn't trying to "dish it out" and I am especially sorry that I seem to have derailed a thread about Roger Caffin's great article :(. Thanks to everyone for their comments and criticisms. I especially need the latter.

[Jason Elsworth]

Hi Robert,

I think you are being much, much too hard on yourself. Probably caused by having read one particular post. Don't feel bad.

Jason

[Anonymous]

" I think you are being much, much too hard on yourself."

+1 Personally, I think Robert's original post was entirely appropriate. IMO, there's nothing wrong with introducing a sub topic related to the original topic of a thread. As to style, condescension, arrogance, it seems that only one poster took offense and that the post was well received by forum members in general.

My advice, Robert, is: Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and sally forth to do battle again. It's only when the Forum Moderator rises from his seat above the din and dust of battle and imperiously turns his thumb down that you need worry about what or how you have posted. Caveat: Occasionally the general sentiment on a thread will turn against a poster on matters of presentation style, or a poster will experience post "post" remorse at his/her remarks. In such cases, it is not remiss to consider a public apology or alteration/deletion of the offending post. Dean F. has been a big enough person to do this on a couple of occasions that I can recall, and is to be commended for same, IMO, as have several others.
Welcome to the Forums. Let the games continue!

[Miguel Arboleda]

Robert, please don't take the criticism so hard. If you read the other comments you will see that most of us agreed with you and found your words very appropriate. I certainly did. Even the moderator (Roger Caffin) supported you, so you really have no reason to feel bad about what you said.

It's a shame that you took your post down. I think it added depth to the series of comments. You should see just HOW off topic people can get here, especially when guns start entering the discussion! Over the years I've written some pretty volatile comments myself and had a few occasions when I inadvertently offended someone and had to apologize, too. No harm. The people on these forums are great; one of the best forum communities I've been a member of. It's the only forums I visit daily and have been for a good many years.

Dean's a good guy, too. Really smart and knowledgeable, perhaps more than the average ULer. I think the only two people in the forums who can stand their ground against him in pure analytical intensity and grand verbal tonnage are Rog Tallbloke and Lynn Tramper. If you have a gander at the "Carbon Flame War" thread, which I've LOOOOONG given up on, you can see Dean in pure form. He's master of the art of "Yes, I see what you're saying, but look at the evidence I have here…" and has the stamina of an ultramarathoning debating ox. I think he was simply miffed that you didn't give him the opportunity to volley with you. (Dean…and Rog and Lynn…, you know I'm just ribbing, right?) ;-P

So please don't feel bad. You were doing all right.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Robert

I thought your posting was quite OK. Sure, you were on a soapbox, but so what? Many of us often stand on them! And what you wrote was well-reasoned and polite. No worries.

Cheers
(with BPL hat on too)

[Dean F.]

Whoa! What?!?

Heck, Robert, I didn't mean to imply that you should take your post down! Obviously I went off the handle or something… (Not the first time.)

Wow. Now I feel bad. You don't fight fair, Robert. :o)

As I said, I AGREE with what you said. All energy ultimately comes from the sun with the possible exceptions (if you don't take the logic too far) of geothermal and nuclear. And, we are rapidly progressing toward a total energy economy, which will get awkward when cheap oil runs out. I hope you saved that post somewhere and can put it back up. I'd feel downright awful if I ever assumed the role of "BPL Censor" or something like that. (I'm a big Bill of Rights guy.) And as Miguel said, this is the best forum in existence.

Not to mention, we are used to digressions, here. :o)

Honestly, my comments were meant more along the line of "advice on debating style" than anything else. When I meet people with whom I share a similar contentious view but who I think are being just abrasive enough in their style that it is counterproductive, I give them the whole "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" line. That is, in effect, what I was trying to do with you. Honestly… I did find your tone smug and condescending, but I admit that in this media misinterpretation is easy. But if it was easily misinterpreted then you still have a problem with your style. (Lord knows I do, at times.) While reading that post the first time I was WAITING for you to address us as "sheeple" or something like that- it seemed to be in keeping with your tone. (I generally ignore anyone who uses that particular neologism, as I find it to be a reliable indicator of someone on a rant, rather than a thought-out argument.)

And as I said, if you simply dumped that into your keyboard late at night after a long day, and thus didn't think much about it, then heck, sorry. I've been there- and it is what often leads to my vicious editing.

Anyway- obviously I was too harsh, there. The "think about it" line set me off, then I started getting persnickety. I'll gracefully back away from the issue, now, if that is possible…

Am I sounding contrite enough?

[Dean F.]

Next issue…

Lynn, didn't we have a long discussion about population control a while ago, in which I played an unnecessarily large part?

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=14664

[Lynn Tramper]

"Lynn, didn't we have a long discussion about population control a while ago

Yup. I'm glad you dug that one up instead of the one where I suggested summarily castrating the majority of males soon after birth ;)

[Dean F.]

>> the one where I suggested summarily castrating the majority of males

Wouldn't work. One male can keep many females permanently pregnant. (Reference herd animals.) You'd have to sterilize the females, instead. :o)

[Lynn Tramper]

"Reference herd animals"

Harems…!

Anyway, my original sexist post had three-pronged benefits: Reduce fertility, prolong the life and health of males, and reduce warring tendencies. That's why I said castration rather than mere vasectomy. Of course, I have nothing against sterilising the women too, and I would happily submit to such a procedure (I have never enjoyed having ovaries). After all, it would prolong the health, life expectancy and non-parenting productivity of both sexes, eliminate STDs, eliminate the dangers of pregnancy and child birth, and prevent fat thighs, PMT, acne and beer guts ;) Basically I think reproductive hormones have a lot to answer for in terms of human misery!

[Lynn Tramper]

Scientific American just released this timely commentary on population growth, energy supply, environmental ills and excess consumerism:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=is-birth-control-the-answer-to-envi-2009-09-23

[Robert Brookshire]

Okay, sorry I took my post down, but I didn't do so because I felt harshly criticized by anyone. I'm quite experienced with internet forums and heated discussions. It was probably rude of me to delete my post as that only made it seem like I was a "victim". It was one of those posts I felt rather ashamed of after a couple days had passed. I still believe wholeheartedly that traditional economic theory is killing us with expanding GDP to keep that conveyor belt of soon-to-be-trash moving ever-faster from source to sink, but I decided that my post was not really on-topic here and was not made with due respect for my audience. In other words, my main critic was right, imo.

Dean, it was not my intent to make you feel bad for criticizing me. I appreciate knowing objective truth above all else (and this is partly why I fail because there is no authoritative "truth" to be found ;)).

Anyway, thanks for the comments and also for the reading suggestions, as Money/Economics is one of my primary reading topics these days.

[John Nausieda]

I think I can add some experience to this discussion. 3-4 years ago My wife , daughter and I lived in Beijing in the Haidian District for most recently one year , and in the previous year , four months. My wife is fluent in Mandarin and is a Cultural Anthropologist. My daughter is adopted Chinese and attended Chinese school there. Both times we were well acquainted, and on the first trip in charge of American students from Washington State and Oregon, many of whom had interests in Backpacking and rock climbing. We have many Chinese friends and know many American, English, and Australian Expats in China.
Let me focus on gear.I watched the students develop relationships with people who camped, hiked, and did rock climbing and saw what kind of gear they purchased and asked them what things cost. No one was able to buy a real Goretex jacket whether it said North Face, Sierra Design , or Jack Wolfskin on it. It was all just nylon with inferior mesh linings and zip in fleece . The fleece itself was ok, but the zippers were crummy. Service life ? About a year, max. Everything had impressive labels and screamed "GoreTex" but it wasn't true. In all that time shopping in about 25 different markets in various cities, I only saw first quality items about 3-4 times-Lands End sweaters, Timberland Fleece. I went into several "Camping shops" in Haidian and Chaoyang. Everything is very expensive by Chinese standards and for the most part I'd characterize the gear as lifestyle items. Camping in China usually means going to a Rock Festival with your tent etc. Or camping on the Great Wall, or going to Leaping Tiger Gorge. There's plenty of beautiful country, but I wouldn't do anything too dangerous and count on Chinese gear. I know camera equipment fairly well. You could find high quality Japanese items in the best markets, but it cost more than it does in the U.S. For non critical items like lighting stands, or bags, the markets are ok. But your Nikon battery is a fake. Your ball head is not machined right or is made from cheaper materials. The carbon fiber on your tripod is weaker.
This is not to say that a U.S. or other company couldn't get better gear made in China. I have a Chinese Moonstone jacket which I bought in the U.S. and it's fine. But I would want a U.S. warranty. I wouldn't buy too much on Ebay unless the seller has great consistent feedback. I myself by things from Hong Kong and PRC sellers like watch batteries, or lens caps but Caveat Emptor.
If you go to China bring your own gear if you want it to work. And be prepared to bargain for everything from fruit in the street to rugs or Qing Dynasty silver. But don't expect help on prices from most Expats. I've seen newer ones pay $100 U.S. for that North Fake on a week long tour. The "right" price at the "right" market is $15 U.S. and that is only after the seller has secretly followed you through all 3 floors of the market for an hour , then follows you out of the market and grabs you and says. O.K. And you are still paying too much.

[Anonymous]

"The Federal Reserve system of banks and other US intragovernmental holdings account for a stunning $4.785 trillion in US Treasury debt."

Does that include the Social Security Trust fund?

[Anonymous]

"That is your choice, but given the current state of the world, it makes no sense to me."

+1 to your post in general. One point of disagreement: India does, in fact, have a vibrant, if small, middle class of ~50 million according to most estimates, with ~250 million "aspiring middle class people, i.e. on the cusp of having discretionary spending power". The trend is even more interesting. India's middle class is projected to grow to over 500 million by 2025. Google up "middle class in India" and you will find many hits. My wife is Indian and we have returned to India many times down through the years. Over the past decade or so, the evidence of middle class behavior has been striking, every place we go. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but it correlates with published studies and commentary and the anecdotal experiences of many Indian-Americans we know who comment on the trend when they return from visits to India.

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