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Insulation Warmer Than Down…


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  • #1523822
    Sebastian Ventris
    Member

    @sabme

    Locale: SW UK

    there was me thinking i might actually get a reply.
    no reply when i emailed klymit either.

    and now for something completely different
    http://tr.im/fraud

    #1635598
    Nate Alder
    Member

    @klymit

    #1635603
    Nate Alder
    Member

    @klymit

    Guys, I am sorry I have been unresponsive for a while. In the last 6 months we have raised more money from investors (the worst part of my job, trust me you're lucky if you never have to do this, hope they're not reading), hired a VP of sales that has over 30 years of experience in the industry (Paul Hardin, former VP of ACR Electronics, awesome guy, we call him our gray beard for all us young engineers: http://www.outdoorlife.com/node/1000023178?photo=11 ) launched 15 new products, opened hundreds of retailers in half a dozen countries while traveling the world and still getting out doors (uuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh …… inhale…..)

    Let me see if I can take a quick stab at a few of your awesome questions working backwards, newest to oldest questions:

    Sebastian Ventris:
    1. Yes, the vest actually has the same buoyancy as a life jacket, but it is NOT a coast guard approved vest. We designed one specifically for pack rafters cause the good gents here at BPL asked us to (Thanks Mike!!)
    2. We actually just launched the worlds lightest full length pad this week at Summer OR and they ship in mid November. We are redoing our website right now, will have a new one up in about 1 – 2 weeks so you can preorder one for Nov. shipment. We call it the Inertia – X – Frame (like our whole energies theme we have going on ;) Features include:
    a. Weight 9.1 ounces and is a 3 season pad.
    b. Takes only 2 – 4 breaths to inflate, then you can top off with the amount of pressure you want using an included hand pump for ambient air, or a separate Klymitizer with argon gas, kind of like a sleep number bed.
    c. Uses Body Mapping design to optimize support, minimize weight and volume.
    d. Rolls up to the size of a Coke can, that includes the hand pump!
    e. Has 30 denier rip stop nylon on top, with a durable 75 denier on bottom. We figured we already cut out so much unnecessary weight, why not put a little more in to make it more durable than other ultra light pads.
    f. Has a comfort pressure of about 4 -5 psi, a burst pressure of 12 psi, where most other industry leading light pads have a burst pressure of about 2.7 psi (don’t plop down too hard on another pad). Some of our sales guys fully inflate the X Frame and jump all over it to show how tough it is during their demo.
    g. Has loft pockets to promote lofting of insulation on the bottom of your sleeping bag, while promoting high breathability through those areas so you don’t build up sweat on your pad during a hot night.
    h. Even though the pad does not look comfy from the pics, you would be shocked how comfy it is from back sleeping, side sleeping, stomach sleeping, it keeps your entire body off the ground (unless you are 6’6” as we started with 1 size, but will launch sever other models in the near future)
    i. We threw everything into the box: pad, pump, stuff sack, repair kit, etc. We don’t see any need or desire to nickel and dime consumers for that stuff so we include everything.
    j. This guy wrote a pretty comprehensive review: http://www.utahoutside.com/2010/08/outdoor-retailer-2010-summer-market-klymit-vargo-outdoors-waterbox-and-polarmax/
    3. Stay tuned for a sleeping bag, we have some pretty sweet stuff in the works, you should come check it out at our office sometime, we would love to have any and all of you guys visit.
    4. LOL, it is funny that you mention sleeping in it. I have not personally done it yet (but I will this winter in the mountains), but we have had several of our consumers write us or visit us telling how their wives stole their vests from them as they are never warm enough at night even with several blankets, so they steal their husbands Double Diamond Kinetic vest to keep warm and the husbands come back to us to buy new ones for themselves as they cannot get their own back LOL. I do NOT suggest this as a form of sensual lingerie, but hey, guess everyone is different in their fantasies, maybe there are some that like noble gases in bed, smells better than the alternative.
    5. Yes, our vests and all gear use a monolithic hydrophilic membrane (just like all the other industry big names, not sure if I am allowed to mention trademark names here though) so the vests and other gear when deflated serve as light/cool windbreakers.
    6. Albeit there is a lot out there to show NobleTek is the best insulator, it is a young technology and still has some limits as we continue to develop and improve things. We have launched a line of base layers, non-insulated and partly insulated shells, and some hybrid NobleTek/fiber insulation products and have a lot more on our product road map.
    7. Our ground pad is any combination or sole fill of either: mouth / ambient air / NobleTek gas.
    8. Sorry, no immediate plans for a different color amphibian, but let me know what your sport is and I can suggest the next best alternative. We will launch several new styles, designs, full NobleTek jackets, womens specific, etc. products in about 6 months.

    Sean Walashek
    Yes, see comment #1 above 

    Dylan Skola
    1. You hit it right on the head. Just as all other insulations have fail points, gas consumption is the biggest weakness of NobleTek. That was mentioned by Backpacker Magazine and Utah Outside.com (see links above) when they tested the vest out. Other than that they thought it was the best insulated gear ever. Guys, we seriously listen to your comments, and especially the feedback of those that actually test our gear. For that reason we created a Recycle Pump and showed a prototype of it during this last week Summer OR. It works like a reverse small hand held bike pump, sucking gas out of the vest into a reservoir on the pump so you can use 1 charge from a argon canister at home and make that charge and canister last for years of inflating and deflating.
    2. Yes, we have larger canisters under way. Keep in mind, making these canisters is the most expensive part of it. Argon itself is very available (1% of the atmosphere) and affordable. The problem is when they make it at the CO2 plants where they make other gas by the millions, you can imagine the work to switch over a factory to fill cartridges with argon rather than their standard gas is a semi manufacturing nightmare slowing product, etc. making the canisters as much as 10 times the cost to produce. Thus, with more volume of 1 specific kind of canister, the cheaper the canisters become, but the more investment capital required. It is a big balancing act when running a company and inventing new gear for the market, so we need to be careful and do it slow and proper so as not to screw things up. Obviously for our military applications where the Special Forces doesn’t care so much about cost, we have some pretty sweet canisters we call the LongShot (size of tube of Rogain foam) and Bigshot (size of a mid size paintball tank and refillable for a couple bucks which we plan to offer consumers soon).
    3. No moisture build up inside vest chambers.

    Mike Reid
    1. Great point, see above about recycle pump. I love your guy’s idea of using the vest gas for fuel, but we have to figure out a safe way to do that so you don’t burst into balls of fire near the stove/camp fire.

    Huzefa Siamwala
    1. See links above to the Backpacker Magazine gear guide review, Utahoutside.com and google Klymit for the hundreds of gear reviews. I also suggest you try one out for yourself, let me see if I can work out a sweet BPL promo code or something for you guys. It will have to be sometime after our new website though.

    Ross Bleakney
    1. Awesome comment. See above about Inertia – X – Frame and other hybrid and other products in development.

    Mark Verber
    Great points, see above comments to Huzefa Siamwala

    That’s it for now guys, hope I have answered enough of your questions thoroughly, I am off and running to my sister’s wedding now. Her name is Katie Alder and you can congratulate her (or offer condolences, depends how you see it LOL) on her Facebook.

    Tupananchis Kama

    Nate

    #1635623
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    Interesting idea, but I'm skeptical as to the breathability and practicality for hiking.

    Gas filled insulation

    #1635775
    Michael B
    Member

    @mbenvenuto

    Locale: Vermont

    I can't see myself using an argon vest. But when I travel in winter, I do worry about adequate emergency gear for a bivy. I don't carry a sleeping bag. But a limited use, waterproof, argon filled bivy bag that could provide shelter and insulation would be very tempting. I am sure there isn't a big enough market for you in that, but that seems like the best use of this technology.

    #1635887
    Diane “Piper” Soini
    BPL Member

    @sbhikes

    Locale: Santa Barbara

    There are different kinds of ultralight gear geeks. One kind endeavors to make everything as complicated as possible and the another likes to keep it simple. Bird down is simple and requires no special refills or patch kits or high tech anything. I think I'll stick with that.

    #1635944
    Fred eric
    BPL Member

    @fre49

    Locale: France, vallée de la Loire

    Yes i would stay with synthetic/down atm if i was looking only for a warm vest.
    But for an hiking / packrafting trip the use as a pfd is interesting and i will look for some info about it.

    The pad seems interesting too.

    Its refreshing seeing something really new for once :)

    #1635945
    Alex Gilman
    BPL Member

    @vertigo

    Locale: Washington

    As a diver in the PNW we're quite familiar with Argon bottles for drysuits.

    Those are typically only used when using trimix since Helium tends to be a little chilly at depth.

    It's a cool idea but I can't see myself using that in a hiking / mountaineering scenario. Down has less drawbacks.

    …it may be neat for use on my Ducati but I could always just plug in a heated vest. So not really practical for motorcycles either.

    It probably has better use under military armor or something.

    #1636009
    Ross Bleakney
    BPL Member

    @rossbleakney

    Locale: Cascades

    I could easily imagine myself using this technology. The potential is great. Essentially, you could create a sleeping bag that is as light as a 50 degree bag (less than a pound) but as warm as a zero degree bag (or as warm as anything in between). You could get similar weight and warmth savings out of your pad.

    Yes, it's more complicated, but lots of folks here choose more complicated gear. Inflatables are way more complicated (and prone to failure) then closed cell foam. Tarps are way more complicated to set up then free standing tents. Handling down gear requires way more care then synthetic (don't get it damp). These are all compromises that we are used to, so, for the most part, we make them. If this technology pans out, I think a lot of people will use it.

    But that doesn't mean it will pan out. I wish them all the best, but with any new technology, there is a big risk of failure. I thought we would have good, light, inflatable "poles" by now. We don't. MSR was supposed to have given us a nice gasoline stove that used some sort of ceramic disk, thus saving us the hassle of priming and carrying a pressurized device. We're still waiting for that one.

    Oh, and I could see how inflating and deflating could be a hassle, but not for me (if used with a sleeping bag or pad). I'm lucky enough to live close to the mountains (Seattle) so most of my trips are small ones. I usually go out for a weekend or three days. This means I only setup camp once. If a system like this could shave, say, half a pound off of what I currently carry, then I would be all over it. I could see it saving way more than that for winter camping.

    #1636111
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    > you could create a sleeping bag that is as light as a 50 degree bag (less than
    > a pound) but as warm as a zero degree bag (or as warm as anything in between).
    > You could get similar weight and warmth savings out of your pad.

    Ho Ho Ho.
    I suspect this is an 'In your dreams' concept.

    Cheers

    #1636132
    drowning in spam
    Member

    @leaftye

    Locale: SoCal

    The inflatable vest looks like a nice solution for staying warm on a motorcycle. It'd keep me warm and give me a little extra cushion when I fall off the bike. Unfortunately I don't see it fitting into my lightweight backpacking ensemble unless they come out with a multi purpose garment…hmm, jacket, sleeping bag top half and sleeping pad all in one?

    #1654714
    Nate Alder
    Member

    @klymit

    I love the conversation you all have going on here, this is exciting. I love the direction you are thinking on possible uses of NobleTek and our other technologies. In fact, you are right on with some of our current projects we have in development, and I hope you like what we will be launching in the future.

    It is a challenge creating a whole new product category, we have an uphill battle like the whole mp3 player entry and cell phone origins, but with time I believe we can create a whole new world of options for gear to explore the outdoors with. So far things are going extremely well and the company is growing everyday.

    If you ever get a chance to visit Utah, be sure to look us up and we can show you around to some of our favorite local places, and give you a peek under the sheets of whats going on and get your personal input on how to improve as we are constantly striving to make our gear fit your needs better.

    #1655061
    Jeremy Platt
    BPL Member

    @jeremy089786

    Locale: Sydney

    Hi Nate,
    I think you are doing a great job developing all of this really interesting stuff and I am currently contemplating investing in one of your X – inertia pads. My idea, is that you could develop an inflatable bivy as it combines the requirements for a waterproof layer with that of insulation and could even have a built in inflatable pad. This would also remove the need for poles and the inflation would take the top of the bivy away from your face and body which is my main problem with conventional bivy's. Probably a pipe dream but could be an amazing emergency or cold weather shelter.

    Jeremy.

    #1655134
    Nate Alder
    Member

    @klymit

    Jeremy,

    thanks for your post. We have some really neat things going on in that general direction for military use that would be a very small simple crossover to the idea. It might be a couple years before it hits the consumer market, but it will be very proven by then due to the purpose of its development now.

    #1659751
    Jeremy Platt
    BPL Member

    @jeremy089786

    Locale: Sydney

    Hi Nate,
    Just a quick question that I had not thought of. Are your argon gas canisters able to be shipped internationally?

    Cheers.

    #1659755
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    Normally, compressed gas cylinders (fuel, inert, or otherwise) cannot be shipped by aircraft. If the cylinder leaked, the gas could fill a cargo hold and cause a fire or lethal environment for cargo workers.

    That leaves shipping by watercraft and maybe overland.

    –B.G.–

    #1659905
    Mark Hudson
    BPL Member

    @vesteroid

    Locale: Eastern Sierras

    Heck I am a newb and I am not sure it will replace down in my line up, but that is ONE COOL TOY, you have there.

    I think I am going to buy one just to play with skiing this year.

    And that pad…may have to try one of those too.

    #1660044
    Nate Alder
    Member

    @klymit

    Hey Jeremy,

    Thanks for the question. Simply put, the answer to your question is "YES".

    Now the long answer: The canisters are under the HAZMAT classification of 2.2 division gases (page 200 of the IATA HAZMAT handbook) and the UN classification is 1006, which are the safest ones to ship, like compressed air, as argon is non-flammable and non-toxic. Canisters can be shipped ORMD which is a ground shipping commodity of consumer goods and is the most affordable. You can also ship via air domestically and internationally using the proper classification and labeling including: Class 2.2 compressed non-flammable gas sticker; also UN 1006 Argon, compressed label; has to have up arrows towards top of package showing orientation; and in some cases you have to use an "overpack" sticker if there is a box inside of a box. To ship internationally it has to be accompanied by a commercial invoice and a shippers declaration of dangerous goods (for domestic you only need declaration of dangerous goods, no commercial invoice); you cannot obscure, block or fold labels. Each country has their own requirements so each shipment can be a big ordeal, like shipping to Japan requires a special certification which we were finally able to obtain. Oh and a HAZMAT certified person has to prepare and ship the package (which we are).

    (Deep inhale)

    So, as you can see, it is not easy for just anyone to ship the gas, but according to the 49 CFR 175.10(a)(11) of Hazardous Materials Regulation (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) in PHMSA, you actually CAN take up to 4 canisters on an airplane with you per vest, per person (2 attached and 2 back up), both checked or carry on, as it is considered a "life saving device" by the TSA, FAA, DOT, DHS, etc. approval. We provide a TSA pamphlet with each vest purchase that can also be downloaded at: http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/prohibited_items_brochure.pdf

    Even though you can carry canisters on the plane with you, we strongly recommend that you just check them with your vest in your luggage as there tends to be a high turnover rate at TSA which can lead to a lot of employees not fully informed on the PHMSA 49CFR approval list.

    I hope this answered your question; it is a very valid one as when we travel all the time around the world, we need to make sure we can bring our gas with us.
    Argon, non-flammable

    #1660069
    Pieter Kaufman
    Member

    @pieter

    I missed this thread before; really intriguing gear!

    Nate, and others with concerns about gas availability/shipping etc.: argon is readily available at any good welding gas supply store, and almost any town of reasonable size should have one. No permits are necessary. I haven't read up on your canisters and adaptors right now, and maybe this works against your business model, but there is that option, if your larger bottle can be refilled by a qualified vendor.

    Conversely, for the very few of us who actually own our own industrial argon cylinders, do you know if any of your hardware or adaptors can be used to refill your bottle from those?

    Too, does anything like a very small re-fillable canister exist so that rather than having to always use new canisters, we could refill one small enough to actually backpack with?

    #1660164
    Nate Alder
    Member

    @klymit

    Great point Pieter. Argon IS readily available all around the world, so it is easy to access, very affordable, etc.

    Let me answer your questions in order:

    1. Although we do make money on selling more canisters, we are all about making sweet gear that enhances enjoyment of the outdoors, so we are always looking for ways to improve our gear and ease of use by consumers. We have actually posted a larger refillable tank on our website for sale that gives hundreds of fills on a vest for just pennies a fill, and they can be filled by either us, or almost any location that fills argon tanks i.e. scuba shop, welders, etc. We make less money on the gas using large gas tanks, but we hope that it makes things easier for consumers, but it is bigger and heavier to carry around so you have to plan the gas canister you take your trip appropriately. The reason why our small canisters are at their current price is because of the manufacturing of the canister, not the gas, we dont order argon canisters in nearly the volume of CO2 canisters produced so our volume costs are much higher. Hopefully as the market size grows for argon the price will come down drastically for the small cartridges, and we hope to do this with our current products as well as replacing CO2 in the bike industry with argon for a much higher performance and more eco friendly solution to fixing a flat tire during a race.

    2. The small cartridges are not refillable at this time unfortunately, once they are used up you just toss them in a recycle bin and use a new one. However, with the right threaded quick release attachment, you can adapt the Klymitizer (valve included with vest purchase) to any size argon tank and get thousands of fills for dirt cheap.

    3. We have searched all over for a cost effective small refillable cartridge but have not yet found a solution. If you find one please let us know.

    One thing we have done is supply each Klymit retailer with one of our BigShot refillable tanks so they can give tons of demos on the vest, but at the same time we encourage them to give free unlimited fills to any consumer that wants a fill that comes into their store, so if you have a shop close by that sells Klymit, you essentially can get free gas for life. We are working on a way to get this at all ski resort shops and ski lifts in the future as well.

    #1660377
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    How much argon does the X frame require to inflate? With the vest at 2-6 fills/Kwikshot, I'd guess the pad is maybe 1 fill/Kwikshot?

    #1660470
    Nate Alder
    Member

    @klymit

    The current small KwikShot canisters we have require about 2 canisters to fill the IXF once, so not ideal for backpacking, but probably base camp where you inflate it and leave it for your trip. We are working on new small canister size options and pressures that will provide more fills per canister. We recommend just mouth and dry air pump (included) for light weight/compact backpacking use. If you're going to do some winter/snow camping we suggest using a closed cell foam pad on top so the IXF acts as a bed frame keeping it off the ground, and actually will double to triple the R value of any pad by simply removing it from contact with the ground.

    We have tested the IXF by itself with a 30 degree Sierra Designs bag in the Fall season, about 65-70 degrees during the day, and 32 degrees at night (not really cold enough for the ground to be frozen by then) and were very warm, if anything maybe too warm that night, so we know it is a great 3 season pad alone. We plan to do some testing with the IXF alone on snow this winter to see if it might hold up and keep us warm enough in sub-freezing temps.

    If any of you pick up a IXF and test it out this winter please let us know how it performs, we love feedback so we can continually make our gear better.

    #1660488
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Thanks. That's helpful.

    #1660552
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    will the new klimat pad be tested to astm standards as the neo air was?

    #1672291
    Nate Alder
    Member

    @klymit

    Based on our considerable research we are not aware of any standard or ASTM testing method for ground pads. We have contacted Kansas State University environmental lab and we were told the hot plate method used to determine R-value varies from manufacture to manufacture changing methods to improve results. Variables like air movement in the chamber is varied to affect the results in a more favorable way depending on what the manufacturer is trying to accomplish.

    Based upon our conversations with Kansas State, we favor the method of using a mannequin for testing as opposed to a hot plate as it more closely simulates the weight distribution of a person sleeping on the ground displacing air support of pads at pressure points adversely affecting its performance in those areas which has less negative effect on the Inertia X Frame (IXF) as it is the only pad that uses higher pressure for support and comfort. We think this would be a better approach and it should be standardized so everyone does it the exact same way using a mannequin simulating a true camping/sleeping experience, rather than one small square section of a pad with no weight on it.

    Also, we were told that the temperature at Kansas State lab is limited to close to freezing which may show comparable results for two separate pads, when in reality one of the two would perform better at colder temperatures. Some manufactures have attempted to manipulate the test standards to show their pad performing under more adverse conditions. All of which is to say, there is no current absolute standard and the industry desperately needs one.

    As for our pad, the Inertia X Frame (IXF) it is an effective 3 season pad very comparable in warmth to other pads in our category based on our extensive lab and field testing and that of the thousands of people using our pads now. We have positioned it also as a second pad for deep winter camping to keep a foam pad off the ground for effective snow camping. While it is subjective as we have not done mannequin testing in a lab yet, we have done hot plate testing and field testing and have anecdotally proven the effectiveness of loft pockets which allow the sleeping bags fibers to loft into the void creating a more effective convective heat trap than is found in inflatable pads that do not have dead air generating fiber down or foam.

    For those of you who might be thinking of placing an order, we have free shipping for the holidays and also the option to get a free baselayer with your order, check out the website for more details.

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