1300 Cals a Day

[John S.]

The only few hikes I've heard of people using body fat stores is Arctic 1000 and Coups hikes that were hundreds of miles and no resupply.

[CW]

Tom,

I'm glad you found updated information. Regardless of the numbers though, your info still agrees with me that you get less total energy from stored fat than from readily digestible fat. The only way it would disagree is if storing calories as fat didn't cost anything. Or did I miss a zero in there?

As to Hufeza's statement that that loss of energy doesn't count because you took that loss in the past. Well, that's an interesting way of looking at things but sounds like Enron accounting to me. If I paid $10 for a $5 item a month ago, that fact won't be any different today. I still paid more than it was worth. Calories don't appreciate in value unless you guys know something I don't.

[Anonymous]

"Ok, I've watched this thread for a while. I'll jump in now…"

Hi Dean and John,

I've been hoping you two would join this discussion at some point. I've got a request to make. Would you both go back to page one of this thread and read my original post to Paul's OP, with the idea of critiqueing it? You both know far more than about human physiology than I and I'm genuinely interested in getting to the truth of the matter, whether it's my position or something entirely different. Suffice it to say I didn't recommend that he hike on 1300 calories/day. Indeed, it would be impossible. It's just a matter of where the calories come from and the impact on his body.

To John,

I've been using almost exactly the same approach as the Arctic1000 group for the last 5 years now, two strenuous 7-10 day trips/year with excellent results. I figure the same principles apply, regardless of trip length.

Hopefully, we will hear soon from Richard N. as well.

[Anonymous]

""Regardless of the numbers though, your info still agrees with me that you get less total energy from stored fat than from readily digestible fat. The only way it would disagree is if storing calories as fat didn't cost anything. Or did I miss a zero in there?"

Chris,

Yup, you missed the zero, at least partially. Your own source mentions that it costs zero energy to break down and deposit dietary triglycerides as body fat. My second source, Jie Kang, gives a range of 0-5%. Thus, unless you have such fine control over your metabolism that you can guarantee that you will burn every molecule of dietary fat as it enters your bloodstream, you will incur the same cost of deposition while hiking, which is zero, but, in the process, you will have reduced its energy content/gram by ~30 calories(see below, last paragraph). The cost of fat synthesis from carbs and protein is another matter entirely, very expensive energy wise, and our respective sources all recommend ingesting dietary fat if gaining body fat is the goal.

"As to Hufeza's statement that that loss of energy doesn't count because you took that loss in the past. Well, that's an interesting way of looking at things but sounds like Enron accounting to me. If I paid $10 for a $5 item a month ago, that fact won't be any different today. I still paid more than it was worth. Calories don't appreciate in value unless you guys know something I don't."

You're right about the cost part, even though it comes from "petty cash, IMO. But what matters to me is when the cost was incurred. If I incur the cost while sitting in front of the tube watching MMA and stuffing my face with Doritos followed by an olive oil chaser, instead of luggng the fat around in my probably bigger and heavier pack, I'll gladly take the hit to my bottom line. That, in a nutshell, is what I've been talking about across multiple posts to this thread. Yeah, I paid more but it was for a purpose and so far, I've gotten my money back plus interest.

The question I am still wrestling with is that there is a difference in the calorie content of stored vs dietary fat of just over 30 cal/oz. or 500 calories/pound. What I haven't yet figured out(and may never) is the tradeoff between the extra calories in dietary fat and larger pack size, whether or not it all gets metabolized as it is ingested, how much dietary fat I can stand to slug down in a day, etc. I'm still working through that question, but meantime, what I'm doing feels very right for me. I shaved a pound off my pack weight, for instance, which is a real obvious benefit. Interesting stuff, huh?

[CW]

Definitely an interesting discussion.

I like Ryan's current method of dealing with food. He relates saving item weight to how many extra calories he can carry. For instance, on this last trip he was relating how much extra calories he could carry offset by drilling holes in his shoes. That could've been for show, but knowing Ryan, there was some truth to it. He never mentioned fattening up before the trip.

[Anonymous]

"I just don't think I'll every get so much into lightweight backpacking that I will cut the food so much that I am trying to use my bodies fat stores as a planned part of the menu."

Hi Laurie,

I'm really glad you joined in this discussion. It was veering off in a pretty esoteric direction and, ideally, what should come out it is a range of concerns and options for addressing them. That way, people can evaluate the full range of choices, according to their individual preferences and goals. Thanks for contributing a more balanced middle way to keep us geeks from going off too far into the wild blue yonder. :-)

[Anonymous]

"He never mentioned fattening up before the trip."

He probably didn't think it was worth it. Only he knows for sure and, so far, he ain't talkin'. It would be interesting to have him weigh in on the subject. He certainly has a wealth of knowledge, that's for sure. Roman and Jason, too.

[Laurie Ann March]

I have to agree there Tom. After all, we all have differing opinions and ways of approaching our research.

When I first entered into writing about trail food I consulted nutritionists (some specifically involved in sports nutrition), professors and other experts including thru-hikers and other cookbook authors. It's an interesting journey and as much I as don't agree with or understand the thinking behind some of what is being posted (for my own hikes especially – long story there)… it's interesting to learn about the other points of view and I appreciate the education of it all.

Yes sir… middle of the road – that's me. Plus I'd rather carry it in a pack than on my body (lol – I've already done the latter – no fun). Not to mention you guys lost me with the math… I create… I have Bryan to calculate… lol.

[Anonymous]

"it's interesting to learn about the other points of view and I appreciate the education of it all."

Yup. I hope everybody else feels more or less the same way.

[Greg Mihalik]

"What will happen to me with the calorie deficiency?"

Well one possibility, depending on your exertion level, is that the lack of calories will initiate the consumption of muscle. This can severely stress your kidneys as you break down that protein.

I just completed an 11 day JMT, and looking at the food left over, I did it on about 2500 calories a day. I lost over 12 pounds, and I had/have plenty of body fat. (This was Not supposed to be a weight-loss program, I just wasn't paying attention.)

For various reasons I just had a renal function test performed, and low and behold, I'm about 75% below 'Normal Low'. My Doc says to forgo a 140 mile hike planned for the first week in August. Dropping another 15% could have serious long term consequence.

Was I this low before the JMT? – Don't know.
Has this happen on previous hard efforts? – Don't know.

So, if you are still considering 1300 calories a day, I suggest testing before and after in order to monitor the impact. Drink Lots of water. And avoid ibuprophen and naproxen.

[Alex Gilman]

UL is good and as most people here will agree only as good as you are good with it. In other words if you're fine sleeping under a foil blanket – sweet. If you want a tent, pad, and a bag you will not be happy sleeping under tin foil for 10 days.

I for one like food and backpack for recreation meaning recreation meaning enjoyment. So to a certain point I am comfort driven. By that I mean I'm not doing Vietnam era SOG – poo hit the fan and I'm humping out with full load out for 10 days with no food type trips.

I can afford to bring a few extra pounds of food with me and I will. In fact I usually bring more to account for getting injured, lost, or going with a mooch.

Don't be the d-bag that didn't bring enough food. This will end in one of the following ways – you mooch food and people will look down on you. or You're too proud to mooch and you suffer ultimately slowing down the group and potentially getting hurt.

Please don't take my post in the wrong way. I mean well and I'm glad you asked people here for advice since now you can adapt and overcome.

[Dean F.]

>> I've been hoping you two would join this discussion at some point.

Way to put us on the spot, there, Tom. There's a reason I was avoiding it. The best point I can probably make is that this is a more complex question than almost anyone here thinks it is. To give an intelligent answer regarding your calculations back on page 1 I'd probably have to sequester myself in my office on the Ovid Gateway for a week or so to read up a bit.

You see, my nutrition classes had titles such as "Nutritional Support in the Critically Ill", so if you are bedridden and on a ventilator with 75% TBSA burns and need calories- I'm your man. I can bust out the Harris-Benedict Formula with the best of them, and produce orders for appropriate TPN, but what this discussion really needs is input from an exercise physiologist. And I seem to recall that we've actually got one around here, somewhere… :o)

That said, I will point out that the purpose of fat is to store calories. Being burned for energy during starvation is what fat is FOR. But the problem is that starvation physiology does other weird things, and it is difficult to avoid losing lean mass even if you are getting 100% of your (inadequate) calories from protein. Taking in as much as 1300 calories, however, doesn't qualify as 'starvation' as I am used to defining it. It is just under-feeding, and 10 days of it shouldn't HARM a healthy person. Also, I'm not used to worrying about how much energy it takes to use stored fat vs consumed fat, because if a patient is using stored fat then I'm doing my job very poorly. An ICU stay is not the time to go on a diet!

Heck, I could talk in circles forever. That's why hospitals have so many nutritionists on staff. :o)

Suffice to say, I can make sure someone isn't over- or under-fed during all sorts of metabolic stresses, but hiking isn't one of them and figuring out this kind of exercise physiology would take me some time and a lot of reading.

But I can tell you that hiking on 1300 calories a day will NOT be fun. Shed weight elsewhere, unless your whole thing is that enduro hiking scene. Because for some people part of the fun IS going as fast and light as possible, and enduring a bit of discomfort to do it.

[Laurie Ann March]

Dean… I have to agree with your last paragraph and also it would be great to hear from the exercise physiologist.

After this thread started I spoke with some of my contacts in the nutrition profession (specifically sports nutrition). Not one thought this approach of bulking up and starving was a good idea from a health perspective. Then again, I can well imagine what they would say about a diet of Ramen… lol.

note: edited to fix a missing word

[John S.]

Tom, sorry I didn't see your post. Your original post to the OP looks okay to me. I don't recommend someone eat 1,300 cal/day when they weigh 177 lb and will be at way more than a 1,000 cal/day deficit. Like Dean says, he will likely be uncomfortable. I like to refer to "Pack Light, Eat Right" for good info.

http://thru-hiker.com/articles/pack_light_eat_right.php

[Anonymous]

"Way to put us on the spot, there, Tom."

Heh heh. Gawd, how I love to see a doc twisting in the wind. :))
But, seriously, you put your finger right on the key to further progress, i.e., smoking our resident exercise physiologist(s) out of the bushes. As you said, you are used to dealing with people whose last concern in the world is how to get by on minimal ingested calories/day in the mountains. I was hoping Richard Niseley would have weighed in by now. He's as close as I've seen to the real deal so far and, as they say: In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

[Anonymous]

"Tom, sorry I didn't see your post. Your original post to the OP looks okay to me. I don't recommend someone eat 1,300 cal/day when they weigh 177 lb and will be at way more than a 1,000 cal/day deficit. Like Dean says, he will likely be uncomfortable. I like to refer to "Pack Light, Eat Right" for good info."

John,
I wouldn't really recommend it to most people, either. It's sort of the dietary equivalent of cutting half the handle off your toothbrush. Not always enjoyable, possibly not healthy(yet to be determined), and definitely not gourmet. This responses in this thread have caused me to examine, yet again, what led me off in this direction. All I can say at this point is that it has worked very well for me and, for reasons unknown to me, gives me a lot of enjoyment. Good mental exercise, if nothing else, I guess.

[Author]

Posts