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Leave No Trace Ethics
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Jun 16, 2009 at 1:48 pm #1508572
For me, a code of leaving minimal impact is not as much about caring for the environment for the sake of the environment, but more about leaving a place for other humans to enjoy as I have done. So to me it's all about making humans feel welcomed and a part of the places they visit, not about excluding them. In other words, leave an area as I would like to find it. Leaving your litter, or unburied faeces, or spreading giardia or whatever is plain inconsiderate and bad manners. From this point of view, as long as it's buried a long way from flowing water and where I won't likely stumble upon it, toilet paper is OK. Other rubbish is not.
Jun 16, 2009 at 2:13 pm #1508582Please read this if you're going to debate the meaning of LNT:
http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles.phpI've always thought of Leave No Trace as the name of a group that simply advocates no/low impact backcountry practices.
There certainly seems to be a lot of angst about the name around here.Jun 16, 2009 at 2:23 pm #1508583It's not angst Craig. Those of us without bushbuddy incinerators just don't fancy carrying used TP around. ;-)
Jun 16, 2009 at 2:37 pm #1508588The angst is in the semantics. If they had called it leave minimal trace, it would be fine. But the word NO in leave no trace is an absolute term that means none, nada, zip. Then they set out rules that describe leaving minimal (not NO) trace. There's nothing really wrong with those basic rules as layed out, they should just call it something different, and also should encourage folks to improve their impact, rather than just minimise it, but that is probably asking too much of most people.
Jun 16, 2009 at 2:49 pm #1508596"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the–if he–if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not–that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement….Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true." President Bill Clinton
Ah yes, thank you.
I guess semantics make the world go round. And round round. And round. And round.
And round.And round.
Let's see how long can we debate the name and not the message.
Jun 16, 2009 at 2:53 pm #1508599It also seems that the author of the article has created a NLT Strawman to argue against. My theory is that there are more authors that advocate this Ultra LNT, than people who actually put it to practice.
Addition – I've heard of people who want you to drink your soapy water, etc. I will start to take these Ultra LNTers seriously once I've met someone who puts it to practice. Until then, its just a bunch of complaining for complaint sake.
lnt.org mentions burying it in a cathole as an acceptable practice. I'm sure they would say that there are times when this could be abused, but they recognize that there are circumstances where burying Mountain Dollars is perfectly acceptable.Below is from http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_3.php
TOILET PAPER
Use toilet paper sparingly and use only plain, white, non-perfumed brands. Toilet paper must be disposed of properly! It should either be thoroughly buried in a cathole or placed in plastic bags and packed out. Natural toilet paper has been used by many campers for years. When done correctly, this method is as sanitary as regular toilet paper, but without the impact problems. Popular types of natural toilet paper include stones, vegetation and snow. Obviously, some experimentation is necessary to make this practice work for you, but it is worth a try! Burning toilet paper in a cathole is not generally recommended.Toilet Paper in Arid Lands: Placing toilet paper in plastic bags and packing it out as trash is the best way to Leave No Trace in a desert environment. Toilet paper should not be burned. This practice can result in wild fires.
Jun 16, 2009 at 2:56 pm #1508601"Let's see how long can we debate the name and not the message."
Is there something to debate about the message? I guess there's toilet paper to debate, but burning it in a Ti-Tri shouldn't cause too much trace…?
Jun 16, 2009 at 3:03 pm #1508606"Is there something to debate about the message?"
It's what started this thread.
Now I'm really confused.
I think I need to stay away from this crazy machine (semantics translation- "crazy machine" as in: machine that makes you crazy).
I need a beer.
Jun 16, 2009 at 3:15 pm #1508610LNT in over-used areas probably requires extra-ordinary measures.
That is why I avoid them.
Plus, I am not going to pack-out my p**p. Next they are going to want us to pack out our pee.
Jun 16, 2009 at 3:23 pm #1508613"Is there something to debate about the message?"
It's what started this thread.
Well, it is a good idea to define your terms so everyone is on the same page.
I think this is a great debate. Sure, on the surface it's about TP. But it's really about how we as backpackers look at the land we love, how to use it, and what our part in it is.
I'm finding the whole thing fascinating.
Jun 16, 2009 at 4:27 pm #1508630It never ceases to amaze me how people get so wound up every time this topic comes up! And most of it seems to stem from not knowing what LNT comprises or from some preconceived notion of what it is. Here's what it is (from the Center For Outdoor Ethics):
Plan ahead and prepare.
Travel and camp on durable surfaces.
Leave what you find.
Minimize campfire impacts.
Dispose of waste properly.
Respect wildlife.
Be considerate of other visitors.Except for the last one it's pretty much the same as the list given by the BLM. Really can't take umbrage against any of it. In fact, it's the same as the values I was taught as a small boy long before LNT came on the scene. Nowhere does it say you can't have campfires (though some forests prohibit campfires in certain areas and specific months). Nowhere does it say you have to pack out your poo (though it does encourage TP be packed out). Basically it says be Present, be Respectful. Om
Jun 16, 2009 at 5:30 pm #1508648AnonymousInactive"But as far as actual PRACTICE goes…
I stand my ground. TP is litter, buried or not."I know we've had this discussion before, but it keeps popping up, so here goes: What is wrong with burning your TP in the cathole and then peeing on it? This eliminates any fire hazard and, with all the nitrogen in the hole, it will be long gone in a few months. I know because I have checked catholes under rocks that I have used on previous trips, dozens of times over the years. At most, only a small, dessicated turdlet remains. That's about as close to LNT as I intend to get, poo-wise, as I refuse to pack out either poo or TP. It is potentially unsanitary AND an animal attractant. As for the BLM holding forth on LNT, that's right up there with Chris Rock on the humor scale. There are many other, far more effective, ways to reduce one's impact to a negligible trace, many of them mentioned in this and other related threads. My 2 cents.
Jun 16, 2009 at 5:38 pm #1508653Toilet Paper is for @ssholes.
Leave yours at home.
Jun 16, 2009 at 5:49 pm #1508658AnonymousInactive"Toilet Paper is for @ssholes.
Leave yours at home."
Profound, Nate, profound.
Jun 16, 2009 at 5:54 pm #1508660Any recommendation re:minimising your impact in a wilderness, has to take into account that the majority of people are not going to leave their TP at home. Thus the 'common sense' approach to the problem is to have guidelines of how best to dispose of TP. Burning and catholes are good where permitted or available (some rocky ridges do not lend themselves to catholes or fires). Carrying it is another option, but many people won't do this either (and I concur).
Jun 16, 2009 at 7:32 pm #1508691Should I leave my @$$hole at home, or my toilet paper… TELL ME WHAT TO DO!
Jun 16, 2009 at 8:08 pm #1508697So if you are headed somewhere where digging a cathole is not possible and you refuse to carry out your poo, what do you do?
Jun 16, 2009 at 8:29 pm #1508700On some mountains you must haul out ALL waste. It ain’t much fun, let me tell you.
I try to be LNT but I bury my dumps on backpacking trips (as opposed to the afore mentioned mountaineering trips). I suppose that the “true zealots” should be packing it out, and their liquid waste too. All that sodium and minerals will mess up the pH balance in the soil, right? It undoubtedly attracts animals to the salt deposits.
Plus I guess they can’t rinse the sweat off at the end of a hard day’s hiking. Maybe ShamWow! Can make a bath mat for LNT hikers to rinse off over…
Everything in moderation.
Jun 16, 2009 at 8:34 pm #1508702As much as I hate to join in this fray, my 2c is that I practice LNT as warranted by the place and terrain I'm in. In much of my local National Forest there are grazing cattle. I don't worry too much about leaving a shallowly-buried deposit along with post-poo peed-on TP in the hole. I agree with Tom about the extra nitrogen in urine helping the paper to rapidly decompose. In more pristine or sensitive areas, I usually carry out my TP. It's really not that bad, so long as it's well sealed in double ziplocs and/or mylar oven bags. In super-sensitive areas (e.g. Mt. Rainier, etc.) I have carried out my poo. And in ultra-sesitive areas (e.g. Lechuguilla Cave in Carlsbad Caverns NP) I have even carried out my pee!
As is the answer to so many of these controversial issues, "It depends…" Hmmm… come to think about it, maybe that IS the answer… DependsTM!
So, HYOH.
Jun 16, 2009 at 8:43 pm #1508706I find a lot of this fuss about 'Leave No Trace' amusing. Just how can you practice LNT when you are on a man-made track?
Given the numbers of other non-human animals, both herbivore and carnivore, sharing the terrain, I suggest that the environment in most cases is quite used to dealing with scats. Any small nutrient-loadings will be gone in a few days (human or other animal). (OK, some of the canyons etc need special care – I agree.)
We don't actually use 'LNT' as a concept in Australia, for that and other reasons. Instead we promote MIB: Minimal Impact Bushwalking. Even so, tracks and camp-fire rings would be a thousand times more visible.
Cheers
Jun 16, 2009 at 8:46 pm #1508709Jim, I think you have probably provided the most common sense approach to this discussion. Your well rounded approach to things shows wisdom. From the extreme of always to the extreme of never, you have brought a cool middle ground.
Jun 16, 2009 at 9:09 pm #1508717I guess it depends on where you hike and whatnot. But, believe it or not, I was actually under the impression that everyone carried out their TP…I honestly had no idea that it was acceptable to bury it.
Jun 16, 2009 at 9:10 pm #1508721pls practice LNT on my front porch!
Jun 16, 2009 at 9:57 pm #1508733Oops,
I will next time, promise…
Jun 16, 2009 at 11:12 pm #1508744Alright I guess I started this so let me try and clarify what my argument is.
Im making a purely philosophical argument here. Yes, its semantics but I think of the good kind.
Are we really this day and age going to pretend that words have no meaning? That they don't convey a certain world view and attitude? This is really the crux of my dislike twords "LEAVE NO TRACE"Yes as I thought I had said, the LNT guidelines as officially written seem totally reasonable I have no qualms with them. But as someone has pointed out even the LNT guidelines need to be seen in context of the environment you wish to enter. For instance I would not bring toilet paper into those few special fragile areas. I carried a Wag -bag up Mt Whitney. No problem.
I don't think I made a strawman out of LNT ,Though saying the alternative is raping the land and being inconsiderate kinda is.. What I said was that I believe the term "LEAVE NO TRACE" -ENCOURAGES- extremism. Because its an absolute statement.
There is no room for debate or discussion it is NO trace, period. ( Lynn seems to understand what I saying)
I know its a bit of figurative speech, but interpreting figurative speech in a literal way seems to be a disease today- everybody does it. So Im saying we have to be careful about what we say. LNT the term if taken this way says that Im already doing something wrong as soon as I get out of bed and decide to travel to the wilderness- already I have original sin Im guilty I know I cant live breath and travel without leaving a trace. But I CAN go to the wilderness and minimize my impact or keep my impact positive. Now Im feeling good. Im one of natures children and Im participating in life and it is good. Yes I have guidelines that the Forest service recommends and even restrictions and its totally doable all I have to do is minimize my impacts and/or improve the state our land is in.
What Im saying in essence is that I feel the words Leave No Trace are counter to my world view, my religion. I am nature, nature is me I belong there I have an impact -all life does it is a good thing. Whether that impact is positive or negative is up to us. Come to the wilderness, come home and leave a trace. -
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