Organic Ultralight Anyone?

[matthew hobby]

I am going to experiment with water and mildew proofing a natural heavy duck tarp with borax or boric acid as a mildew resistant and tree resin as a waterproofing

[Colin Krusor]

I don't think a tule (or any similar material) mat could approach the insulative value of a 1/2" closed cell foam pad, but it would certainly be warmer than sleeping directly on the ground. CCF should be far warmer in theory, and my first hand experience spending cold nights on tatami mats supports the theory. I think it is a good idea, but expecting it to be comparable in warmth to a CCF pad is unrealistic.

[Justin Baker]

I don't think anyone would have carried a mat in that time period. First of all, wool doesn't compress so you would still have insulation on your back. You could use a canvas ground sheet under that. That would work well enough for warmer weather.
Ground insulation can be easily improvised on the spot with bows, grass, or leaves. It works just fine if you gather a whole bunch of it.

[Rusty Beaver]

Why should CCF "be far warmer in theory"? Have you looked at the cross section of bulrush/tule? It looks like a natural CCF. Straw (tatami) on the other hand is hollow. For that reason, I believe the bulrush will have a fair bit more insulative value. When I said a "tule mat could approach the insulative value of a 1/2 CCF pad", I was thinking 1/4"-5/8" dia tule doubled over for a mat that would be up to 1 1/4" thick. How thick was the tatami mat you slept on?

Of course, with a twined tule mat, one would have a gap between each, or every other tule whereas a CCF would be a continuous layer of insulation. Still, I don't think it's unrealistic to think it could "approach" the warmth of 1/2" CCF. It would definitely be bulkier though, doubled over, and probably heavier than I originally posted…maybe ~16oz or so. Just a guess based on my experience working with it. I could be wrong though. Been wrong many times before…….

[Rusty Beaver]

"I don't think anyone would have carried a mat in that time period. First of all, wool doesn't compress so you would still have insulation on your back".

I assume you're referring to my post about the Native Americans. I don't recall seeing any ethnographical evidence that it was carried by person in those times but it was widely utilized otherwise… when it was available. Lots of evidence there. In fact, now that I think about it, remnants were found in a cave just a few miles from my house.

As far as wool not compressing, I'm not sure I understand. Are you referring to a wool blanket or raw wool? As a kid, one of my unfortunate jobs on the ranch, before the sheep shearers had mechanical means, was tromping wool, AKA, compressing it smaller for ease of transport to the processing plant. We did that by jumping up and down inside large vertically supported sacks. It compresses many times smaller…but that's in its raw form.

"Ground insulation can be easily improvised on the spot with bows, grass, or leaves. It works just fine if you gather a whole bunch of it"

That's the route I'd take, combined with a thinner twined tule mat on top.

[Justin Baker]

I mean a wool blanket. By "not compressing" I mean you don't get the same dramatic effect of compression that you get with down or fluffy synthetics. You could sleep flat on the hard ground and still have insulation at your back. It's the same thing with a fleece blanket. Weight aside that makes a wool blanket or fleece blanket really good in a hammock.

[Anonymous]

Kapok makes fairly good, natural insulation and is extremely hydrophobic, and since it doesn't compress as well as down maybe a stuffed waterproof treated silk "mat" combined with some wool could be decent? As far as tarps, tents, sleeping bag liners etc i wonder about using Tencel? While it's not completely natural, it's still better than a lot of other things. Tencel has three interesting properties which might make it good for something like this.

They already make micro tencel fibers and their resulting yarns and fabrics. If you make the weave tight enough with these micro tencel yarns, then water proof it, it would help and would be significantly lighter weight than the cotton ducks, canvas, etc. Tencel is much stronger than cotton (some say it's almost as strong as polyester, but i don't know if i believe that). Tencel also has "nano fibrils" that form in certain conditions. These are like tiny micro hairs that branch off the main fiber. This can increase insulation some and i would imagine, if you do it right, maybe waterproofing–sort of like creating a WPB type fabric.

Btw, i really like my linen and hemp clothing for warmer weather backpacking. A lot of people don't seem to know it, but both dry much faster and wick much better than cotton, and also insulate better. Hemp is slightly better in that regard because like Linen it is hollow fiber, but it also is porous on the surface of the fiber, so traps a lot of air.

Both are quite strong and durable. For cold weather stuff, i like Alpaca stuff a lot and consider it better than Merino in a lot of aspects. It's true that Sheeps wool CAN be more durable than Alpaca, but only when it's felted to some extent. Alpaca doesn't felt as well as Sheeps wool. Alpaca fibers have a significantly stronger tensile strength than Merino, despite the fibers being semi-hollow–which makes it more insulating per lighter weight, but again if you felt the Sheeps wool well it will end up being more durable than Alpaca.

[Adam Thibault]

I've been searching high and low for egyptian cotton the last few months and here's my results:

Craig MacDonald has 4 oz loomstate egyptian cotton for sale for $25/yard (60" fabric). It's a very tight weave and suitable for tents and the like…
Craig Macdonald

R.R.#1, Dwight,
Ontario, P0A 1H0 Canada
Telephone: 705-635-3416

Tentsmiths is compiling a list of people who would like to purchase 4 oz treated egyptian cotton because they are considering doing another run in 2013 if there are enough buyers. If anyone is interested in this I urge you to get on the list. It will probably be similar in price to Craig's material.

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