Jan 9, 2009 at 1:03 am #1233108
I was pondering the advantages the UL community could bring to space travel and foriegn world exploration. Space is demanding in many of the ways ULrs excell. Who has the lightest gear list for Mars and can still survive? Multi-use items. Weight vs. fuel. This is the UL future. Same game just a bigger board.Jan 9, 2009 at 5:31 am #1468883
@kneebyterLocale: the depths of Hiking Hell (Iowa)
I'm thinking the space program has the UL thing down. They don't have a choice about it.Jan 11, 2009 at 3:36 am #1469351
Before we conquer other worlds we should fix the one we are in I dare say.Jan 11, 2009 at 8:05 am #1469371
@dwambaughLocale: Pacific Northwest
The space shuttle weighs 4,474,574 pounds at launch and has a 50,000 pound payload capacity. UL? NOT!
The only thing lightened is the taxpayers' wallets :)
I'd hazard to guess that space and military development has fostered titanium and lightweight alloy production and fabrics like Kevlar and Spectra.Jan 11, 2009 at 8:49 am #1469380
@kneebyterLocale: the depths of Hiking Hell (Iowa)
Is that weight including fuel?
Fuel is a consumable, it doesn't count against base weight! ;-)Jan 11, 2009 at 2:43 pm #1469430
just have a close look at a satellite. Seems they are made from tent poles and aluminium foil thinner than beer cans. Only have to survive the acceleration at the start. So these guys cannot learn much from UL camping anyway.-) Alcohol stove won't work on Mars, lacks a slight bit of oxygen I am afraid. Solar panels then?
Ah yes, did someone ever build that stove from empty milk cartons? Is promoted for Africa (since our recycling goes to there to recycle itself somehow after the consumer paid some extra recycling fee in the supermarket). These cartons have an aluminium foil inner layer and are then folded in a way that the sun is focused on to the pot. May be working for boiling water, no idea. Need some sun for it, should go to Alice Springs to try it…
edit: the payload thing in Space shuttle (and any other rocket): you have to accelerate to 11km/s (if I clearly remember) to leave gravity and earth behind. Needs plenty of fuel. Since decades there are dreams about airplanes doing a part of the work, would use less fuel. But seems there is no money to investigate that at the moment, NASA spent it all on O-Rings and styrofoam (whohaha) and the Russians are bankrupt.Jan 12, 2009 at 2:54 pm #1469659
I understand that the space program has the upper hand in regards to the materials and products in developement, but at some point when you can book a flight out with restrcted weight, aren't you going go have a look. Ok, maybe not you are me but the attitude and resourcfulness of the community could bring unknown possiblities to the near future. Survival may be too easy here and therefore the problems here. I would imagine the effort put forth in conquering the abundent challenges (stove won't work) could only take away from negative effects of simple survival here.
Thanks for your tolerance and comments.
Do you weight are departure or destination (different gravitational pulls)?Jan 12, 2009 at 8:06 pm #1469710
gravity of Earth when leaving from here.
But we would have to consider gravity on other planets if we want to live there, since our skeleton and muscles are built for conditions here, might have troubles under double the gravity. But, Mars does not have an atmosphere, or, so we don't have to deal with atmospheric pressure there.
Yes, survive on earth is easier, there is always an empty beer can in the bush to make some of it, rather not on some other planets (yet)…
I agree, once you are in space, you have to improvise, no home builders market around the corner and no ebay to get stuff sent. That's how Mir kept in the orbit for so long. They should use Russians or Australians, the can build entire houses from Gauge 8 wire and sticky tape.
Colleague told me the story, Americans spent millions to develop a space pen (ball pen needs gravity to work), Russians just used a pencil…
In diesem Sinne,
SteffenJan 14, 2009 at 4:49 pm #1470195
@markhurdLocale: South Texas
I agree that the Russians or Australians should do it. NASA needs to get their units figured out. Metric or English? But the story about the Space Pen is a myth.
Both Americans and Russians used pencils early on. The Space Pen was developed with private funds by the Fisher Company. see URL below. Still it makes a good story.
-MarkJan 15, 2009 at 1:43 am #1470299
nice story that.
However, costs decent money to get stuff up there, suppose, these guys did their homework….Jan 15, 2009 at 3:51 am #1470305
Danke, but unfortunately most Australians would no longer know what 8 gauge is, or what to do with it. We're getting pretty handy with zip-ties though. (They're the only thing holding the rear bumper on my Falcon at the moment)
RodJan 15, 2009 at 1:37 pm #1470422
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Speak for yourself!
I have a large roll of 8 gauge and another large roll of 12 gauge in the barn, and very useful they are too!
CheersJan 15, 2009 at 1:48 pm #1470424
Seperating by nationalities will only slow exploration (intentional?). Similar to racism it doesn't benifit the whole.
I live in interior Alaska and have witnessed survival of -40F (metric makes more sense) weather for weeks straight. Systems/machines/etc fail in these conditions, but imagination and determination allows survival.
People need to be brought together for their talents and experience not because of where they where born. If we have something to contribute to the success of the mission, we are allowed to assist in my perfect reality.
Anyone familar with space elavator concept of getting things to space. A station that orbits in time with the earths rotation to stay directly above the same spot and then simply raise or lower cargo. One of these set ups at earth and the moon or mars etc, and weightless frictionless transport between, paired with a low base weight of multi use items…
Not if. How and when.Jan 15, 2009 at 2:01 pm #1470425
At -40F it doesn't make much difference if you are using English or Metric, at least when referring to temperature!Jan 15, 2009 at 2:15 pm #1470432
This is all pretty far off the MYOG forum…
…but what exactly are we looking to send up/bring back with space elevators and such?Jan 15, 2009 at 3:16 pm #1470442
I thought I might get called on the temp=metric. My point is metric measure of weight (or is it mass?) and distance makes more sense (X10), however living in the US I am hit with the other system. I the same respect celcius is more logical (0=freezing 100=boiling instead of 32 and 212)and not used with frequency at my locale. So with these units of measure all similar in logic I refer to them as metric, and wish they were the measures we all use.
Last time I checked, all the systems and equiptment weren't in place for the ideas I suggested therefor the need to MYO. But this is open terrain and MYOG is a tiny box. Sorry it doesn't all fit in there.
I offer to throw out my ingrained standards of measure and learn/use the best system. I offer myself and my location for applicable testing. I offer my mind, one piece of the universal mind, in hope that your mind with be simulated into joining the universal mind, and all the paths not yet traveled.Jan 15, 2009 at 3:45 pm #1470447
@Jacques: don't know if there ever will be frictionless movement, maybe in another galaxy. Space elevators have some troubles with the cable between down here and up there… Has to be at least 36 000km long. Heard spider web has amazing properties.
Yes agree, up to now it was more a thing to show off, during cold war. 1st just to show the others "we are able to send a nuke everywhere around the globe". Than merely prestige, why do we have to send someone to the moon? Now enter China, we are the 3rd to enter space. Would have been cheaper to join forces…. Now that every space agency is short in funds. But well, its all about competition. So we invent the bicycle a million times, in case some ones is better.
But what shall we do on Mars or so, need to create an atmosphere 1st.
reg Fahrenheit 512: well, he was logic in his way, its based on alcohol, isn't it? 0 F it freezes, 100 F it boils (the alcohol). That happens when you use alcohol instead of mercury in a thermometer.
I constantly try to work out ounces by comparison on food packages, can't work it out. Inch used to be the thickness of the ruler's thumb, of course changed with every ruler. Luckily by now it is at least constant…
@Rod/Roger, been on an inspection, this guy plumbed in his water tank (good on him) using gaffer tape. Another favorite is liquid nails, but I had no choice.
Anyway I still have the sneaking suspicion that we can rather learn from these guys how to make lightweight multi use things than the other way around. NASA asks for 24.000 Euro per kg pay load…Jan 16, 2009 at 8:59 am #1470604
@magillagorillaLocale: Southwest Ohio
But, Mars does not have an atmosphere, or, so we don't have to deal with atmospheric pressure there….
Um, Mars has a surface level atmosphere of about 7-10 millibars
Fahrenheit 512: well, he was logic in his way, its based on alcohol, isn't it? 0 F it freezes, 100 F it boils (the alcohol)……
The freezing point of water is 32 degrees Fahrenheit and the boiling point 212 Fahrenheit (at 1013.25 millibars), placing the boiling and freezing points of water 180 degrees apart. A degree on the Fahrenheit scale is 1/180th part of the interval between the freezing point and the boiling point.
Inches verses Centimeters……..
Get a measuring stick that has both
On the topic, I suspect that NASA has a few tricks up their sleeve that would help UL camping and not so much the other way around.Jan 17, 2009 at 3:08 am #1470774
On the topic: that's what I just said.
Atmosphere: well, its 1/100 of Earths pressure… Even if it was pure oxygen, not much helpful. And not much pressure on the spine either, Thanks for putting it into millibar instead of ounces per square yard or something like that.
You have to admit that the metric system is easier to use, that's why everyone except US and maybe some tribe on the Amazon joined in….Jan 17, 2009 at 10:48 am #1470811
@magillagorillaLocale: Southwest Ohio
"You have to admit that the metric system is easier to use, that's why everyone except US and maybe some tribe on the Amazon joined in…."
No arguments here.
It would make my units conversion spread sheet much easier. Then there is still the US floz/pint -vs- British floz/pint difference. And don't get me started on Tbsp, tbsp, and jigger measurments! AHHHH!Jan 17, 2009 at 2:44 pm #1470870
that brings the ball home: with the metric conversion sheet you can travel/backpack lighter ;-)Jan 17, 2009 at 2:45 pm #1470871
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
> I suspect that NASA has a few tricks up their sleeve that would help UL camping and not so much the other way around.
Yeah – their project managers are real good at evaluating the risks to O-rings … maybe they could reduce the weight of the ones we use on our stoves?
CheersJan 17, 2009 at 2:56 pm #1470876
well, then your stove takes off to outer space killing 7 (ants) and its time to make something different: try to bring an 1 L Faxe can to good use in a new stove/pot project?Jan 17, 2009 at 3:49 pm #1470887
Steffen – Thanks for this discussion however….
“But what shall we do on Mars or so, need to create an atmosphere 1st.”
This would be true if you are moving there permentaly perhaps, but from a hiker whom should be making no/minimal impact just as on earth this seems quite funny.
Back to temps. I didn’t know what Fahrenheit was based on and now that I am informed I still stick with my initial response that it is not logical. Where is the logic in basing something on alcohol properties when most everything I am concerned with is water based (weather, food, myself).
Measurements – sounds like we are going metric. Just think we have already saved millions and years of research with just a conversation and no conversions or money spent. The problem isn’t what the conversions are but why haven’t we eliminated them. Each person in there life, some way more frequently then others, does conversions that take away time and energy that could be used for something more beneficial than converting measures.
Competition is essinsal for sure. But humans will benefit more if the competition is more relevant to our position in history. We have many options for transportation here, let us a whole not a country put are knowledge together advance to the next level instead of reinventing the wheel over and over.
Now for my next idea…..to get shot out of the water.
We are aware it is possible to purchase a ride to the space station. What would be the limiting factors in leaving the station, using a spacesuit and propulsion pack and cargo sled to “float” to moon. Can the spacesuit act as vehicle/shelter/clothing. Also, using a large bungee could one launch from the moon surface up a crater slope riding the emptied cargo sled (they do this on earth with gliders, etc but are utilizing wing lift as well). Reusables launch system using no fuel.
You are shaking your head aren’t you.Jan 17, 2009 at 11:10 pm #1470962
hm, thought it was about colonize other planets. OK, take a stroll on Mars.
"A Mars mission would take roughly three years from launch to reentry, including 6-12 months of travel each way and a lengthy stay on Mars while the planets reach optimum position for beginning a return flight
However, the trip to Mars lacks the political urgency that fueled the original moon shot. DeHart said he doesn’t expect to see a voyage there within the next 20 years.
Currently there is no one out there trying to beat us to Mars, at least from this planet,”
Guess at the moment a robot is more suitable…
For the sled on moon: Plausible (sic mythbusters), was reading trough the earth elevator story and they were talking about dangling sth. on a 15km long cable. So with 1/6 of Earths gravity, why not sliding something down that cable. But again, why involve humans? Drag him up and down with every sixpack to be delivered? Why not making a robot stack the parcels?
And finally, why shall we camp on Moon? Suppose hanging around there for one day would feed a small African country for a year.
The problems and costs out there are a different game altogether. And spin offs from that are blown out of proportion. A zero g hammer, pointless on earth.
Cannot exactly say what drove development light weight materials and finally made them commercial? aerospace and military? Or Formula 1? Or aircraft industry? Or just discovered by accident like Teflon and Styrofoam?
edit: base thermometer on alcohol: well, maybe an alcohol thermometer was the first of its kind or just at hand. Just like a stone. Or a cup. Or the emperor's elbow ("Elle" the unit is in German). Or a candle for "candela". Why an apple and not a pear in Newton's case? At the end measuring is comparing with some abstract thing. 12 times emperor's thumb's width is a foot. Could be anything. A meter referred back to a 1 m long item, the platinum 1kg sits in some museum….
edit 2: but all this is off topic. Cannot see my poncho being used in a moon mission. Neither my yet to be designed Faxe stove (should check Dan Murphy's if they stock Faxe).
Suppose should continue in another forum…
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