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Breakfast


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  • #1460880
    Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear
    Spectator

    @huzefa

    Locale: Himalayas

    I dont know the answer to you first question. What I can do is endurance train with high intensity exercise to increase my muscle glycogen storage capacity and maximize oxygen delivery and utilization.

    >You are slamming 160g high GI sugar into your body close to bedtime when it is most likely to get stored as fat.

    This will be immediately after exercise when muscle glycogen level is low. Maltodextrin/Whey protein will spike up insulin and will be used up by muscles for glycogen repletion rather then converted to fats. I cant find one study that says otherwise. Keep in mind this is about 80g/hr which I think from various articles I have read, about under the max glycogen repletion rate.

    >All the research says is that you burn a greater proportion of fat in the fasted state, which I agree with 100%.

    For anyone interested here are some studies.
    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/245/4/E318
    http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nrc/apnm/2006/00000031/00000005/art00004;jsessionid=hk3c69lec6o6.alexandra

    >I think what's more important is to ensure you don't waste any more muscle than you have to by pushing past your mobilisable non-muscle energy stores.

    Agreed. The key here will be to ensure muscle glycogen repletion after exercise and very low GI (uncooked rolled oats -not instant) complex carb meal before sleep which will provide energy through the night for further glycogen repletion.

    Another way of looking at this is to consider dinner analogous to breakfast. Many athletes have large complex carb meal 4h before exercise. I am having it before sleep and exercising immediately afterward. Advantage: (1)less energy wasted between the meal and the exercise and (2) possibly lower insulin level while exercise aiding in greater fat oxidization.

    #1460885
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    You are WAY over-thinking all of this. There is not a SHRED of evidence I have ever come across that shows increasing the amount of fat you burn DURING exercise has any impact on total fat loss. That was my whole point about sprinters, who are the biggest and leanest athletes around. They burn 100% glucose during exercise. All you really need to worry about is 1)getting enough protein, and 2) eating less calories than you burn over the whole day. Everything else will take care of itself.

    There was also a study that compared people "hill walking" for 21km in either a fasted or fed state. The fasted folks, not surprisingly, showed much diminished coordination and ability to maintain body temperature. The authors concluded that walking in this state was a health and accident risk to people. So why risk it? Of course, if that's the way you enjoy eating, then more power to you, but there is not a lot of sound rationalle to support it will make you leaner or preserve muscle.

    >I am having it before sleep and exercising immediately afterward

    ?????Do you plan on sleeping for only 4 hours? Maybe I still don't understand the timing of your food intake. Exactly what are you eating when? How long are you walking for??

    Also keep in mind that endurance athletes almost continuosly take in extra fuel as they go through the day. They don't just eat breakfast and then wait until the event is over to eat food…

    #1460888
    Christopher Plesko
    Member

    @pivvay

    Locale: Rocky Mountains

    I agree with Allison, you're way over thinking this. Pick one "new thing" to try and see how it goes in reality first.

    Most ultra endurance athletes I know struggle to eat enough during an event period. Living on powder gets old fast. Believe me, I know and I LIKE most of my powder drinks.

    #1460951
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    We aimed to examine the effects of different energy intakes on a range of responses that are relevant to the safety of hill walkers. In a balanced design, 16 men completed a strenuous self-paced mountainous hill walk over 21 km, under either a low-energy (1.3 MJ; 313 kcal) intake (LEI) or high-energy (12.7 MJ; 3,019 kcal) intake (HEI) condition. During the hill walk, temperatures were measured continuously, and blood samples for the analysis of metabolites and hormones were drawn before breakfast and immediately after the walk. Subjects also completed a battery of performance tests that included muscular strength, reaction times, flexibility, balance, and kinesthetic differentiation tests. During the LEI, mean blood glucose concentrations leveled off at the low-middle range of normoglycemia, whereas, on the HEI, they were significantly elevated compared with the LEI. The LEI group showed significantly slower one- and two-finger reaction time, had an impaired ability to balance, and were compromised in their ability to maintain body temperature, when compared with the HEI group. The modestly impaired performance (particularly with respect to balance) and thermoregulation during the LEI condition may increase susceptibly to both fatigue and injury during the pursuit of recreational activity outdoors.

    Skipping Breakfast = Not Too Brilliant

    Rampersaud's team examined the results of 47 studies on various effects of breakfast consumption among children and adolescents. Interestingly, while breakfast eaters consumed more daily calories, they were less likely to be overweight. Children who consistently ate breakfast tended to have superior nutritional profiles. This concurs with a cohesive body of data indicating that adults who eat breakfast meet their daily micronutrient needs better than habitual breakfast-skippers. Breakfast skipping also degrades mental performance in children. Overall, the evidence points to regular breakfast consumption improving cognitive function, test grades, school attendance, memory, and nutrient status. The latter effect pertains to macronutrients and essential vitamins and minerals. The impact of skipping breakfast on the intake of other functional nutrients hasn't been studied.

    In a controlled intervention trial on lean subjects, Farshchi's team found that skipping breakfast decreased post-meal insulin sensitivity and increased LDL-cholesterol, despite a high (6-a-day) meal frequency. This data points to the possibility that the body is "metabolically primed" to eat a meal soon after an overnight fast.

    Concurring with the above results, noted protein researcher Donald Layman asserted in a recent review that the most critical meal of the day is breakfast after an overnight fast. This is partially due to circadian protein synthesis rates being lowest at this time. He states that the anabolic impact of a meal lasts roughly 5-6 hours based on the rate of post-meal amino acid metabolism, therefore, significant dietary protein should be provided at approximately 5-hr intervals throughout the day. In the final analysis, Layman's suggestions are a safe bet without any major convenience impingements.

    In three separate controlled experiments, Benton and Parker examined the effect of breakfast versus fasting on cognition. In the first study, fasted subjects took significantly more time than the fed group to complete both the spatial memory task and the word recall. In the second study measuring information processing and short-term memory decay, the fasted group lacked the improvements shown in the breakfast group. In the final trial, memory and intelligence were measured. Although breakfast didn't enhance abstract thought, it was superior to fasting for recalling a story read aloud. The researchers concluded that these trials were in agreement with a substantial body of previous research demonstrating that breakfast benefits memory.

    On the observational research front, the National Weight Control Registry (NWCR) is the largest ongoing study of individuals who have successfully maintained substantial weight loss over the long term. To qualify, participants must maintain a weight loss of at least 13.6 kg (30 lb) for at least one year. According to a formal analysis led by Wyatt, 2313 subjects (78%) eat breakfast every day. Only 114 subjects (4%) reported skipping breakfast. This obviously isn’t cause-and-effect data, but it shows the crucial commonalities in the habits of dieters with long-term success. Daily breakfast is clearly one of those habits.

    Fasted Exercise Training = Not Optimal
    The combination of fasting and exercise training has never been a good idea from the standpoint of optimizing protein synthesis and inhibiting protein breakdown.

    Recent research by Baty's team showed no exercise training performance benefit of a protein-carb solution taken pre, during, and postworkout. However, two indicators of muscle damage were elevated in the fasted training placebo group. Their myoglobin levels approached significance halfway through the exercise bout, and were significantly elevated 6 hours postexercise. Creatine kinase levels were also significantly elevated 24 hours postexercise.

    Tipton's team compared the effect of an immediate PRE-excercise training dose of essential amino acids + carbohydrate with the same treatment immediately postworkout. 262% more amino acid uptake was seen in the pre-group compared to the post-group. In a subsequent study, Tipton used a similar protocol with 20g whey protein only, administered either immediately pre- or immediately postworkout. Although no significant differences in protein synthesis were seen, Tipton noted that the study was underpowered to detect differences in such a small sample size. He suggested that a protein-synthetic increase would be seen in the preworkout treatment if there were approximately double the number of subjects. Also of note is that 4 of the 8 subjects in the pre-group had greater amino acid uptake than any of the subjects in post-group. Furthermore, it’s highly likely that more protein synthesis would be seen in the pre-group if carbohydrate was taken with the protein, as was the case in Tipton’s previous study.

    Bird's team saw muscle-preserving effects of an EAA+CHO solution ingested during training after a 4-hour fast [50]. The EAA+CHO treatment suppressed any cortisol increase, whereas the fasted group's cortisol levels rose 105% by the end of the training bout. 3-methylhistidine (3MH – an indicator of myofibrillar protein degredation) levels in the fasted group were elevated by 56% 2 days after the exercise bout, whereas 3MH levels the EAA+CHO group were reduced by 27%. Apparently, even a partial fast before resistance training can negatively impact muscle protein status.

    #1460952
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    You also made references to some ketogenic dieting articles: It is from these that we can see that fuel-source burned during the day has nothing to do with total fat losss over time, For instance (and this is one of many):

    BACKGROUND: Low-carbohydrate diets are promoted to lead to greater weight loss than does the conventional low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet. OBJECTIVE: We compared weight loss and biomarker change in adults adhering to a ketogenic low-carbohydrate (KLC) diet or a nonketogenic moderate-carbohydrate (NMC) diet. DESIGN: Twenty adults 34.4 +/- 1.0 were randomly assigned to the KLC (60% of energy as fat, beginning with approximately 5% of energy as carbohydrate) or NMC (30% of energy as fat; approximately 40% of energy as carbohydrate) diet. During the 6-wk trial, participants were sedentary, and 24-h intakes were strictly controlled. RESULTS: Mean weight losses 6.3 and 7.2kg in KLC and NMC dieters, respectively; and fat losses 3.4 and 5.5 kg in KLC and NMC dieters, respectively; did not differ significantly by group after 6 wk. Blood beta-hydroxybutyrate in the KLC dieters was 3.6 times that in the NLC dieters at week 2, and LDL cholesterol was directly correlated with blood beta-hydroxybutyrate. Overall, insulin sensitivity and resting energy expenditure increased and serum gamma-glutamyltransferase concentrations decreased in both diet groups during the 6-wk trial. However, inflammatory risk (arachidonic acid:eicosapentaenoic acid ratios in plasma phospholipids) and perceptions of vigor were more adversely affected by the KLC than by the NMC diet. CONCLUSIONS: KLC and NMC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.

    Also note that the ketogenic dieters appeared to lose ~1kg more weight, but the NMD folks lost 2 more kg of FAT, which is the real object of the game. We can see then that the KLC dieters loss far less fat.

    #1461064
    Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear
    Spectator

    @huzefa

    Locale: Himalayas

    >There is not a SHRED of evidence I have ever come across that shows increasing the amount of fat you burn DURING exercise has any impact on total fat loss.

    My concern is neither fat loss nor gaining lean mass. I am sorry if I haven't been clear about this. My goal is to find min. PPPPD needed to sustain my hikes. The strategy is to optimize the use of fats as a primary source of energy.

    ____
    >We aimed to examine the effects of different energy intakes on a range of responses that are relevant to the safety of hill walkers. In a balanced design, 16 men completed a strenuous self-paced mountainous hill walk over 21 km, under either a low-energy (1.3 MJ; 313 kcal) intake (LEI) or high-energy (12.7 MJ; 3,019 kcal) intake (HEI) condition. During the hill walk, temperatures were measured continuously, and blood samples for the analysis of metabolites and hormones were drawn before breakfast and immediately after the walk. Subjects also completed a battery of performance tests that included muscular strength, reaction times, flexibility, balance, and kinesthetic differentiation tests. During the LEI, mean blood glucose concentrations leveled off at the low-middle range of normoglycemia, whereas, on the HEI, they were significantly elevated compared with the LEI. The LEI group showed significantly slower one- and two-finger reaction time, had an impaired ability to balance, and were compromised in their ability to maintain body temperature, when compared with the HEI group. The modestly impaired performance (particularly with respect to balance) and thermoregulation during the LEI condition may increase susceptibly to both fatigue and injury during the pursuit of recreational activity outdoors.

    Skipping Breakfast = Not Too Brilliant

    Note that the subjects were self paced. This study would be more relevant if the pace of the subjects were controlled. If a subject from LEI walks to match the pace of someone from HEI, he is obviously more likely to run out of glycogen.
    ____

    Thanks for sharing the studies.

    From what I understand, it is the insulin response to breakfast that affects fat burning. So a better/safer alternatively to not having a breakfast, would be to have breakfast which has low GL so it doesn't affect fat burning. Yes, you have finally convinced me :)

    Having oats for breakfast seems best till I find a better alternative. I will also remove peanuts (as snacks) as it seems a waste of resources to digest fats while exercising.

    Thanks! :)

    #1461099
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    >My concern is neither fat loss nor gaining lean mass. I am sorry if I haven't been clear about this. My goal is to find min. PPPPD needed to sustain my hikes.

    Yes, you did have me confused on the point of your food choices.

    >Having oats for breakfast seems best till I find a better alternative.

    Phew, I think you will find your performance much improved with this step. Oats are the breakfast of many champions (with some milk or whey powder of course) ;)

    >I will also remove peanuts (as snacks) as it seems a waste of resources to digest fats while exercising. The strategy is to optimize the use of fats as a primary source of energy.

    There is nothing wrong with eating fats while you do moderate level exercise. They are, after all, exactly what you are hoping to burn as fuel. As you probally know from those links you supplied about ketones and ketogenesis, the human body is very capable of burning nothing but fat for fuel once it has adapted, although maximum sprint/strength ability is compromised in this state. So really, if your goal is just to get the bare minimum PPPPD then a ketogenic diet (60-70% fat and 30-40% protein) would be the lightest, but you would really need to be adapted to this regime before you hit the trail. Keep in mind many traditional cultures (Inuit, many north American Indians, Masai, etc…) survived much of the time without a constant supply of carbs, without detriment to their health or ability to hunt and other exercise. However, most 'modern' people prefer to have carbs in their system when hiking. It's just what they are used to. Whatever diet you decide on, I highly recommend you try it out for a few days before the real event. It's no fun 'hitting the wall' or getting the runs or whatever in the middle of a wildeness!!!

    >Note that the subjects were self paced. This study would be more relevant if the pace of the subjects were controlled. If a subject from LEI walks to match the pace of someone from HEI, he is obviously more likely to run out of glycogen.

    True, but "self-paced" mimics the real world much better. In other words, even if the LEI were slower due to less glycogen, this would be true for you as well assuming you Hike your own hike in a similarly glycogen deprived state!!!

    Finally, here's one for the philosophy forum. Glycogen stored IN your body requires 3 grams of water for every 1 gram of carbs. By carrying the carbs and eating them as you go (instead of glycogen loading your muscles and liver), you will actually be carrying less total 'skin-out' weight at the start of each day (due to less fluid retention), and your pack will get lighter through the day instead of at the end of the day. So, in theory, if you are going to eat a carb-based diet, the lightest PPPPD and skin-out weight would come from eating all your carbs from morning through mid-day, and going to bed depleted!!! You would then just be swapping the calorie useage around, burning carbs through the day and fats in the afternoon and through the night. This is exactly what dieting bodybuilders do….Same calories eaten, same amount of fat burned, but less total weight to carry. Of course, this is also why people starting on a ketogenic diet get so excited in the early days…they lose a lot of weight quickly. Of course, it's easy for them to convince themselves they've just lost a lot of fat, but the truth is that most of the initial weight loss is from shedding excess water held in glycogen stores. This is also one of the reasons why bodybuilders withhold carbs from their diet for a few days before weighing for a show. They want to get into the lowest weight class they can, and shedding excess glycogen helps them drop a lot of water weight fast.

    That's kinda why I said you were really over-thinking this issue. Carry the carbs as 1x grams on your back, or carry them as 4x grams in your body.

    #1461164
    Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear
    Spectator

    @huzefa

    Locale: Himalayas

    To be honest, I am not really keen on adapting to pure ketogenic diet. I was tempted by Dutch Truffle cake today… I dont think I can give up on pleasures of life. :)

    __

    There is some great insight here. I am sure this info will be appreciated by many who will come to find this thread.

    Following this I have modified my diet by swapping PED with a protein shake in the morning.

    We really need to talk about something else now. How is that cuben quilt project going?

    #1461214
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    >We really need to talk about something else now. How is that cuben quilt project going?

    Well, that would be an ideal time to start a new thread, but unfortunately I haven't even started the quilt yet. Right now I'm figuring out the best way to repair my cuben tent!

    I'll be interested to see how the diet works for you. I also don't "like" ketogenic diets. I just never feel as good on them as when I can eat pasta or potatoes for dinner!

    #1466509
    Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear
    Spectator

    @huzefa

    Locale: Himalayas

    I did a solo hike last weekend. Started around 2:30 AM and finished by 7:PM, two hours away from the trail end where I stopped for the night. I was actually planning a longer trek but couldnt find the route.

    I took with me:
    >800g Oats
    >800ml apple juice
    >40g sunflower seeds
    >A pack of raisins (didnt eats them)

    I had about total of 8 servings, 7 that day and 1 next morning. Each serving contained about 100ml juice and enough oats so they are completely soaked. I guess I ate about 550-650g of oats. I didnt weight it.

    I think the diet worked really well! I never felt out of energy that day even when hiking at fast pace. But I am not sure I will ever take oats with me :( Since last weekend I havent touched oats.. kinda feel repelled by them.

    I need to rethink what I will eat on my next hike. complex carbs rich in proteins and fibre…

    I found some Oats bisuits in store yesterday. I will try them. Also found variety fried legumes.

    Keep you guys posted.

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