8 Day Winter Gear List

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

Sorry for the off topic question but I cant PM Mike.

Mike wrote:

man, what were u doing under a tarp?!! why didnt you make snow shelter? My curiosity is piqued.

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

Hi Steve.

I dont see hand sanitizer. You can multi-use it as a fire starter too.

>WM VERSALITE
Just curious how much much room is in there for layering. Is it possible to wear TNF PRISM OPTIMUS JACKET inside?

>GOSSAMER GEAR SPORT EYEZ
Not sure if you really need goggles as some suggested. This should be adequate, no?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mike

Ah so. Yes, in fine weather in summer I have been known to sit outside on a log while cooking. Easier on the back. Although Sue has a preference for lying full-length on her mat snoozing while I cook … :-)

My big concern is that novices who are not familiar with snow camping might have got the impression from you that they have to cook outside **no matter the weather**, and this can be dangerous in several ways. Hypothermia, gear blowing away, … you know, I am sure.

> NOLS, and we are notorious for making elaborate snow kitchens.
Yeah, well, there's only two of us (Sue and me), and the snow isn't that good or deep in Australia, and very often we are travelling for long days and it's almost dark (in winter) by the time I am ready to cook dinner. Base camping in the snow is not done much here: we tend to travel/tour each day. In the evenings I simply haven't the energy to make a snow kitchen of any sort. In fact, ski tourers just don't make snow kitchens in Australia – probably for the same reason. (Getting dark – or too tired? Either!)

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Steve

> but the weight of all that fuel literally makes me sick.
Ah – and how much weight are we talking about here?

For one person in the snow I typically use *under* 30 g of butane/propane per day – maybe 25 g/person/day. That allows for some snow melting. So for 8 days you might need about 200 – 220 g of fuel – which fits into 1 full screw-thread canister or one nearly full large Powermax canister. Is that all that bad?

(If you can collect water every day, the amount required drops to about 15 – 20 g/person/day.)

Cheers

[Chris Wheeler]

Steven I don't know of anyone that's gone around Killarney in the winter. Fortuneatly, for me the weather wasn't to bad, and I was able to keep the hiking time down to six hours each day, which allowed for time in camp before dark. I did cook most of my meals under the tent fly, as I found this warmer and very convenient. If I was to do the trip again in late fall /early winter I would use a canister stove and take two canisters of gas. The lakes were still open, so getting water was easy. This was my third solo trip around Killarney. My favorite time for Killarney trips is just after Thanksgiving, still lots of colour, yet the canopy is starting to open up.

[Mike Clelland]

Huzefa asked:
"man, what were u doing under a tarp?!! why didnt you make snow shelter? "

My reply:
=======

This is (I think) in reference to my claim of sleeping under a tarp at 40 below zero.

This was on a NOLS course. It was the very first night, and the bus dropped us off in the afternoon, and we made it only a few miles into the mountains, the North Western Wind River Range.

We didn't have time to make snow shelters, and we were at a low elevation, and the snow was too shallow anyway. We were 4 instructors and (maybe) like 12 students. So a big group. I'll add that they all did great! It was a really amazing and empowering experience. Peoples eyelashes were freezing together, those little blue tabs on the nalgene bottle lids all snapped, and we had to light our MSR stoves on fire to get the "O" rings to work!

When it's that cold in the Rockies, the skies are clear, and there is no wind. Still and beautiful. But, when people ask what it was like, the honest answer is: "It was F****ING COLD!"

The next night we moved up higher into the mountains (cold air sinks, so a little warmer) and it was only 20 below. We camped in big snow caves, and we felt like we were in Florida!

[Mike Clelland]

Below are cartoons showing the INDOOR KITCHEN.

[Sam Haraldson]

Be sure to note the requisite coffee-maker in Mike's photo. ; )

[Roger Caffin]

Fantastic!

[Angela Zukowski]

Not to take this thread off-topic or anything…

Mike, I just have to say that I'm an illustrator by trade too and I love your illustrations. They're great. And I wish I was illustrating subject matter that was this interesting… maybe someday!

[Steven Nelson]

Mike – as always, stellar work – love the illustrations!

Steve: I think your list is a good one overall, and I don't have a great deal to add that's different than what's already been said.

However, I will add another voice to the chorus of caution on the BushBuddy. I have one, and it's a lovely design, but I'd not consider it for a moment in the depths of winter unless I were convinced that the weather would be bright and sunny and I was near a trailhead and copious dry wood, and feeling really lucky to boot.

I've been in extreme conditions where just setting up a mountaineering tent left me close to hypothermic and with freezing hands; beyond the fact that the BushBuddy couldn't be used inside a tent or vestibule when conditions required, it sure takes a lot of attention and dexterity to get it up and running and pumping out heat, and when your health and safety depend on getting hot water going, it would be a very risky choice at best. I vote for a remote canister stove or a liquid fuel stove, rather than the BushBuddy with Esbit tabs as backup, even though I understand the appeal of the latter.

I use the Sporthill XC pants and love them – they can wet out in some conditions, but in general are warm and comfortable, yet breathe well for heavy exertion. They're my favorite snowshoeing pants. I combine them with lightweight WBP shell pants, and for colder conditions, GoLite Full Moon pants that are similar to (but alas, heavier than) the Cocoon Pants, which are an excellent choice.

Depending on the low temperatures you're expecting, I'd also add in another vote for some neoprene socks. I use the Feathered Friends booties and like them a lot, but find them dangerous for walking around icy snow kitchens and the like, as the soles are slippery and the shell slides around. I've taken to using them inside of Crocs sized up to accommodate them (on trips where I don't mind the extra weight).

All in all, looks like you're in good shape for this winter – we'll look forward to hearing some trip (and gear) reports.

[Steven Evans]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

Bushbuddy: I understand everyone's concern. I have them too. Perhaps I will take my windpro. However, my fuel consumption is much higher then 30g/day. I actually about double that when melting 4-6 liters per day.

Sporthill XC: Good to hear the positive review. I am heading over to MEC to check them out tomorrow morning. I susually just use a light nylon pant so I figure anything would be better then that. Cuben rain chaps as hardshell for nasty weather.

Neoprene socks: Also on my list to check out tomorrow at MEC. It would probably be a bombproof system as I will have neoprene over boots aswell. It just seems that with all this extra weight on my feet, I could go back to boots! :)

Thanks again guys!

Roger, how much snow are you melting on 30g of fuel?

[Roger Caffin]

> Roger, how much snow are you melting on 30g of fuel?
It isn't quite that simple. My records (I weigh the canister before and after the trip) show that I averaged about 45 g/day for two people on the last snow trip. I am not sure how much I melted over that trip. The last summer trip averaged 26 g/day (again for two).

I revisited two articles I wrote some time ago on Winter Stoves:

Selecting a Canister Stove for Cold Weather Backpacking
Part I: Stove and Fuel Fundamentals
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/selecting_stoves_for_cold_weather_part_1.html

Selecting a Canister Stove for Cold Weather Backpacking
Part II: Commercially Available Canister Stove Systems
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/selecting_stoves_for_cold_weather_part_2.html

In the first article I wrote:
"From this we can see that to melt ice at freezing point into water, still at the freezing point, takes about 80 calories per gram. That is as much energy as it takes to heat that water to about 80 C (176 F). If the ice (or snow, it makes little difference) is some way below freezing you have to add a bit more energy just to warm up the ice to freezing point as well. For instance, if the ice starts at -20 C (-4 F) then it will take an extra 20 cal/g to bring it to freezing point, on top of the 80 cal/g to melt it.

In short, to melt cold (sub-freezing) snow into ice-cold water takes about as much energy as bringing the ice-cold water to the boil. This means you could be doubling the amount of fuel needed if you are always melting snow. What fuel you are using here doesn’t matter."

So you can work out your expected fuel consumption from this. However, many people find that they can't get the sort of fuel consumption I get. That is probably because they neglect at least one of the following:

1) Use as wide a pot as you can
2) Never run the stove flat out – half power is fine
3) Always use a good windshield around the stove and pot
4) Always have a lid on the pot
5) Dutch oven your dinner as soon as it boils
6) Turn your stove off as soon as you remove the pot

Cheers
Roger

[Jim Colten]

1) Use as wide a pot as you can
2) Never run the stove flat out – half power is fine
3) Always use a good windshield around the stove and pot
4) Always have a lid on the pot
5) Dutch oven your dinner as soon as it boils
6) Turn your stove off as soon as you remove the pot

To this excellent list I'd add using a natural fiber cozy covering the top of the pot and all but the bottom inch of the sides. One layer of 1/8" thick cotton batting sandwiched between cotton fabric. (cotton in the backcountry? Oh No!) Yes, use this while the pot is on the stove. Yes, the bottom edge of the cotton will char but I don't care, I can make another one every few years. Synthetics will melt and or burn away.

[Michael Martin]

One thing you have to realize about Roger's winter fuel consumption is that his ancestors were desert reptiles…so his water needs are very low. ;-)

Seriously, Roger's numbers for the energy needed to boil water from snow are spot on — about 2x that needed to boil from cold water. Roger and I have kicked this around before and his winter fuel use estimates are always very impressive. I attribute this to four things:

1) Low water consumption as mentioned.

2) Efficient Stove use (partial throttle, etc.).

3) Efficient water routine (minimizing re-heating water).

4) Reliance on finding liquid water.

FWIW, I budget 150g of propane/butane mixed fuel per day to melt *all* of my water from snow. Then again, I like having a hot water bottle around to warm my hands…and my ancestors were fishes. ;)

Cheers,

-Mike

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

Hi Mike. Thanks for sharing the reason. My interest in cold weather camping, particular use of snow shelter was piqued by your previous posts.

>It was a really amazing and empowering experience.
I can only imagine that :)

And your cartoon kitchen is very cool. love it!

[Mike Clelland]

Steven wrote:
==========
"Neoprene socks: Also on my list to check out tomorrow at MEC. It would probably be a bombproof system as I will have neoprene over boots as well. It just seems that with all this extra weight on my feet, I could go back to boots!"

My reply:
=======
I'm curious why you are using MONTRAIL HARD-ROCKs, and not a pair of lightweight boots? I think the porky 16 oz neoprene over-boots defeat the purpose of the HARD-ROCKs. If your goal is to travel light during cold, snowy (and potentially wet) weather, the HARD-ROCKs are particularly ill suited.

[Steven Evans]

Mike,
I'm using the Montrail Hardrocks because that's what I have. :)

My old system (boots with gaiters) worked great, but after a few days, it was really hard to keep the boots dry and unfrozen. Sometimes putting my feet into them in the morning was painful, and even if I put them in my bag at night they wouldn't dry out completely. So I started to bring down booties along so I could dry my boots by a fire if req'd. Then sometimes there wasn't a fire, so i started looking into overboots to keep my boots dry. After I burned my boots. I looked a little closer at the 40 below overboots and figured that would be a great way to use trailrunners, eliminate my gaiters, save some weight and keep my shoes unfrozen.

Old System
Wigwam Gobi Liners 0.85 oz
ID Vapour Barrier Sock 2.25
Merrel Radius Mid WTPF 70 oz
Nylon Gaiters 8oz
Total: 81.1 oz

New System
Wigwam Gobi Liners 0.85 oz
ID Vapour Barrier Sock 2.25
Montrail Hardrock 40 oz
Plastic Bag 0.5 oz
40 Below overboot 16oz
Total: 59.6 oz

I saved 21.5 oz on my foot system, with the added benefit of keeping my shoes dry and having only 1 pair of shoes for all year round. I thought it was a smart idea…wasn't it?

[John Whynot]

It's been ages since I've done any serious winter camping, and my experience was limited to the Adirondacks and the White Mountains, but our preferred footwear was vapor barrier boots. Very simple footwear system — just socks and boots. I guess I'm just curious about the idea of turning running shoes into footwear suitable for multi-day sub-zero temperature trips.

[Matt Lutz]

I've been following this thread closely, and I'm impressed by what I have seen. I'm taking a 14 day (estimated) snowshoe trek on the Superior Hiking Trail (similar to Skurka's Icebox of '07) in January, and my gear list looks pretty similar with a few exceptions. (exceptions: MK1 XL for shelter, -20 down bag, white gas stove and mukluks. As for the reasons for them, I bought the MK1 on a huge sale and can't justify returning it OR buying another shelter, the bag and stove are what I have and the mukluks have been used in MN forever, and have earned my trust. I'm also taking VB clothes instead of a VB liner)

Your list looks very thorough. My only qualm is using the BB, but hey, go for it. As for the booties, While I would love to get rid of them and cut their weight from your pack, with your footwear setup they are necessary. I look forward to trip report and photos!

Good call on adding the TNF down coat/parka. I would really like to take a Montbell Thermawrap parka, but my temps could be -20 or colder. I also am opting for thicker down jacket instead of a UL parka better suited for

I also liked the photo of wearing all of your clothes. It is something that needs to be done for anyone who is heading to the outdoors. It answers the questions: How does my clothing work together? and What is the most amount of my clothing I can wear at a time?

Good luck. I'll keep following.

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