Backpacking Light’s New Thorofare Collection

[Lynn Tramper]

Kathleen, I sized up one size, and find them roomy without being baggy. They are very long, but this is a minor concern for me as shortening pants is trivial. There are also snaps on the pant hem so you can adjust the closure. These snaps were WAY to far apart…I would have needed elephant sized ankles to use them, but they worked extremely well OVER snowboard boots (and no doubt other high top boots). I also added a spare snap from my sleeve modification so the pant leg also now adjusts to my ankles with just runners on. So no, not a perfect fit, but comfortable enough.

[Kathleen B]

Thanks, Allison. It sounds like they might work. I've altered guy pants before – usually hemming, which, as you say, is a trivial alteration, and a few tucks in the waist. It would be great if they could get me through a Cascades winter with thin merino longies underneath. I may wait for other color choices, though.

As others have said, the fabric dries extremely quickly. After my one attempt at using the shirt as a base layer, I decided I didn't like the wet feel from the perspiration, so I've gone back to my s/s merino base layer which still gets just as wet but doesn't feel like it and using the shirt as an overshirt.

[Lynn Tramper]

Yes, I don't like the feel of sweat dripping down my skin, so will also porbably only use the shirt as an overshirt. This is what I do anyway (protects my knit base-layer from getting snagged and keeps the moisture from dripping). In summer I will stick to something more 'natural' feeling like cotton or silk.

[Lynn Tramper]

I wore the shirt and pants on an 800 metre day hike this weekend. The temps were mild and sunny most of the way up, turning to VERY windy and cold as we gained the ridge. The pants were, once again very comfortable, and worked well as wind pants too. The shirt was sweaty, clammy, turning to ice cold on the ridge. When we stopped for lunch there was a dramatic difference between how wet and cold my shirt felt (especially where my daypack pressed against the shirt) and my friends merino top. The merino felt warm and sligtly damp, the Thorofare was downright soggy. But it DID dry quickly (no doubt part of why it was cold). I would not consider this a windshirt at all. There are too many gaps down the front (between the snaps) and in the sleeves to effectively block strong winds. I think the fabric itself would work well as a windshirt given a different design.

[Monty Montana]

"I think the fabric itself would work well as a windshirt given a different design."
Allison, I think you're spot on here. In an earlier post elsewhere I noted that the fabric seems exactly the same as that used in the Patagonia Houdini…my favorite windshirt!

But so far I've been pleased with the performance of the shirt. It does get damp inside when I'm hammering to gain the ridge top, but then it dries fairly quickly, and so far there's no stink factor. What I'm especially pleased with, however, is its ability to foil skeeters. I watched one for about five minutes as he marched all over the sleeve trying to drill me to no avail!

[Brett Tucker]

13 December. Went for a 6 mile run this evening.

Conditions: 16 F, light winds, dry.
Clothing worn (torso): lightweight polyester tee (next to skin), Thorofare shirt, and full-zip single-layer wind jacket

Heavy exertion in these temperatures is usually a game of constant fiddling with layers, of starting off cold, eventually finding a metabolic sweet spot, and ultimately losing it to sweat-induced chilling. Not so tonight, and I believe it had everything to do with my inclusion of the Thorofare shirt instead of a second thermal layer beneath the wind jacket.

A little background: I find a wind jacket, or windshirt with decent ventilation options, essential when exerting in these temperatures, regardless of any wind, since I'll generate my own. Heavier shells, or softshells, don't offer the same versatility. A thin, wicking layer, or several layers as needed, beneath the wind jacket, can be added or removed as necessary, but the jacket is a mainstay.

With the Thorofare in the mix, I started off warmer than usual, apparently as the windshirt-like quality of this shirt afforded some additional protection against convective heat loss, such as at the jacket zipper, cuffs, and perimeter. As I continued to exert, I heated up and eventually began to sweat, per usual. This is when I'd normally consider shedding a thermal layer, both to control sweating and in anticipation of further metabolic warming. Because sweating is impossible to avoid in this scenario, no amount of fiddling with layers will keep the next-to-skin layer dry. A VBL is impractical, so typically it's a case of accepting that moisture will spread from the base layer outward, and ultimately through the wind jacket; that the wind jacket will help control convective and evaporative heat losses to an extent; but that those heat losses will still occur, and ultimately no amount of metabolic warming can forever keep up with the constant sweat-induced cooling.

On a winter hike, I'd also slow the pace in an effort to control sweating. But on a recreational run in the safety net of my own neighborhood, sweat happens. And this is a good thing for testing purposes, at least.

With the Thorofare shirt, I sweat, same as usual. Yet I never felt compelled to adjust my layering, as the sweating never grew intolerable the way it would have with a comparably worn knit or light pile layer. The Thorofare lacks heat-trapping loft, yes, but again it's not a suffocating VBL either. Even better, for the first time in memory I was able to avoid the standard late-run chills, as the Thorofare all but prevented my sweat from migrating to the outermost layer as liquid moisture and evaporatively cooling me. The outside face of the Thorofare, like the shell jacket layered above it, remained bone dry throughout the run.

This lack of wet-out of the outermost layers is an incredible advantage here. It's not something a vapor barrier could ever deliver comfortably while running. A waterproof-breathable shell would likewise have grown intolerable under prolonged heavy exertion. So the Thorofare would seem to be in a category all its own here, passing sweat as water vapor with relative ease while preventing the dreaded wet-out that's the bane of cold weather activity. Duly impressed here in December!

[Paul Tree]

quote: "no amount of metabolic warming can forever keep up with the constant sweat-induced cooling."

That sweat, it's caused by your metabolic warming.
You wear too many clothes to begin with.

There is no excuse to sweat at 16 degrees except deferring removal of layers. A hat or hood gives the quickest and biggest difference in warmth, maybe try that. Well and zippers, but you tried that already.

[Brett Tucker]

It was a neighborhood run, at my usual pace. As I say, sweat happens under these circumstances, as a byproduct of metabolism. Finessing the layering game to the point of zero sweating is impractical. (And yes, hat and gloves come off first, etc. etc.)

My point wasn't to solicit suggestions for avoiding sweating, but to test how the Thorofare shirt, as a part of an overall clothing system, manages sweating under high exertion in winter conditions. To relate it to something more topical, trade my running scenario for a steep trail climb in snow with a backpack.

[Michael Martin]

I have to agree with Brett, here. Yes, absolutely, maintaining thermal balance by regulating your exertion level and clothing layers is a crucial skill and art for lightweight *hiking* at a moderate heartrate. It's a different matter when *running* for a couple hours in cold temps at high heartrate. I've yet to find a layering system that will keep me dry on a 20 mile run at 35F…

BTW, I'm heading out the door for a 3 hour run in a few minutes. Right now, its 5F with a 25 mph wind. In my ongoing quest to find the perfect cold-weather running layers, I'm going to try running in a fishnet baselayer for the first time. Wish me luck. :)

Cheers,

-Mike

[Paul Tree]

Would you say it's like having 2 windshirts? People have compared it to the Houdini.

I would be interested in (you) trying that. :)

Yes I am thinking more uphill backpacking than jogging.
Pretty much the only thing that gets me sweating in cool conditions is underneath the pack. We have tall hills here, so maybe because I am not doing intervals I have a more temp-stable situation?

Retaining a thinner hat or headband and gloves over the extremities, and less coverage where the sweat comes out could help.

[Brett Tucker]

>>Would you say it's like having 2 windshirts? People have compared it to the Houdini.

Better than 2 windshirts, since the Thorofare doesn't wet-out like a standard windshirt. This might not apply with the Houdini, though. But a true windshirt over the Thorofare blocks significantly more wind than the Thorofare alone, and that's important in my above example. Also, a wicking base layer beneath the Thorofare felt ideal in these conditions, but would probably be overkill at temperatures closer to the freezing mark. In the upper 30's or low 40's F, I'd probably try wearing the Thorofare alone, after a warm-up period with a windshell over it.

[Brett Tucker]

>>3 hour run in a few minutes. Right now, its 5F with a 25 mph wind … fishnet baselayer for the first time. Wish me luck. :)

Brutal! Dashing!

[Michael Martin]

Hi Paul-

I think we're more on the same page than we realize. A goal of hiking, even strenuous uphill climbing, is to control exertion to minimize excess sweat. Conversely, a goal of running is often to go at a fixed (and typically high) exertion rate for as long as possible. Sure, I could dial my run pace down to stay drier, but that would defeat the purpose of the run. :)

-Mike

[Paul Tree]

Mike, thanks, and do report back on your happiness with the net shirt! What outer layer? Thorofare and net shirt?

[John Myers]

Any chance they will be making shorts out of this material?

[Mark Verber]

I have been very pleased with the thorofare pants in the snow. I found them to be much more snow resistant than supplex, cloudveil's Inertia, or 2 year old pertex equilibrium [This might be because the equilibrium's DWR is compromised due to use] while being much more breathable than typically WPB materials. It's been a more than a year since I have used an EPIC shell in snow, but it seems like the thorofare pants did at least as well, I think maybe better. I spent several hours postholing in knee deep snow with nothing but patagonia 3 base + thorofare pants. My legs stayed comfortable the whole time. near the end there were sections that felt slightly damp but the dampness went away very quickly after I got out of the snow. They seemed to do as well as my heavier Dryskin pants, and were somewhat more resistant to moisture when I sat down on wet snow.

I was unimpressed with the thorfare in hot weather. It seems like the thorfare shirt was a bit less air permeable than supplex and also had less ventilation than my standard rail rider adventure shirt (a button version of the echo mesh). Likewise, the pants had less venting options than my typical zip-off leg hiking pants. As a result I found I was sweating more. I didn't see any particularly remarkable wicking performance, nor did they seem to dry significantly faster than the already speedy drying times of a thin supplex.

A place than thorfare seems interesting (still need to more experience before being sure) is in cool, damp conditions. I found the thorofare fabric (at least when new) to have excellent DWR properties. Light drizzle just rolls off. Even when they wet out, they don't stick they way typical windpant or windshirt would. In the last couple of years I have not been using a traditional wind pants or windshirt. I found that in warmer weather supplex provided a bit of wind protection while having enough air permability to keep me from overheating and when it was cool enough that the wind was really going to chill me that propore worked well without causing me to overheat or to get sweaty. I have found that the material used in the thorofare clothing seems to work well when looking for moderate (but not complete) wind protection.

–mark

[Gary Boyd]

Is there anything to be done about piling?

[Lynn Tramper]

"Is there anything to be done about piling?"

Nope.

[Gary Boyd]

Thanks Lynn your succinct answer matches my question :P I guess my next question would be, is the piling a sign of serious degradation?

I did get to test these clothes out today. It was about 70 degrees most of the day and I got in a good 20 miles at German Ridge in Hoosier National Forest. It rained the early part of the day, softly at first, and then a good downpour. It then settled in to a muddy mess for the remainder.

I love the pants, save the aforementioned piling, I like the fact that they have no zipper as they are easy enough to just pull down when I have to pee. I didn't seem to sweat much with them on, they felt light and comfortable all day, rain or no rain.

I was planning on just wearing the thorofare shirt on top, but decided to wear a light cotton shirt underneath because I had heard that the material can feel a little stuffy. I guess to be fare I didn't really give it a chance, but wearing the cotton shirt and the thorofare in these conditions was too much. I did wear the shirt when it started to rain hard, and was quite impressed with how easily it shed rain, and at how quickly it dried thereafter. My cotton shirt was still wet when I got back to the car, which was nice because it kept me cool, but the thorofare shirt had dried by the time I stopped for lunch.

All in all I like the system, but will probably bring a breezy undershirt for normal hiking conditions and just add the thorofare shirt for additional warmth and rain protection. I want to thank BPL for making the look so classic, as they go great with my mountaineers hat. It's leather and not at all lightweight, but I do enjoy wearing it, it keeps the spider webs off my face, and the rain out of my eyes.

[Brett Tucker]

The pilling tends to happen to the inside face only, doesn't it? And only after a fair amount of use. Albeit, I'm much more familiar with the shirt.

It seems possible that mosquitoes might be able to penetrate the fabric as it degrades over time from use and washing. (One mossie may have penetrated its defenses in a wet area of the shirt fabric where it was pressed against the skin at the shoulders… or I may have simply felt the proboscis probing at the surface of the ultra thin fabric – hard to say.)

Breathability seems to improve over the life of the garment. It'd be interesting what sort of balance a non-Pertex high-denier woven of a comparable weight could achieve w/r/t breathability and bug resistance. (A more "generalist" Thorofare line might have broader application, though as it is I've come around to really enjoying the shirt for 3 season use as well, especially for packrafting.)

[Mark Verber]

What's the materials CFM. Early in the thread there was an indication that the values would be posted, but I never saw the final answer.

–mark

[Bill Fornshell]

Hi Mark,

What is CFM? Cubic Feet per minute air will blow through the material?

Thanks

[Lynn Tramper]

"The pilling tends to happen to the inside face only, doesn't it? And only after a fair amount of use"

Actually, the pilling is quite bad on the outside face where stuff such as pack straps have rubbed. As for fair amount of use, depends on what that is. My shirt is in pretty bad shape after ~30 days of use with a pack. The pants have faired much better, but they are usually protected from the knees down by sturdy gaiters, so not much rubbung/abrasion going on.

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