Jun 17, 2008 at 12:37 am #1229605
I would really like a titanium cone to fit the FireLite 475ml Ti Trapper's Mug.
But first the disclaimer:
The Caldera Cone (TM) by Trail Designs is listed as a patent pending device. I in no way intend on infringing on any patent that they hold or may soon hold, nor do I encourage others to do so. The following is a hypothetical exercise that will hopefully result in some design feedback that I can forward to TD as suggestions for their next generation cone.
Now the rest of the story:
My first thought on a cone redesign would be to somehow keep the height of cone components down to the height of the accompanying pot, so that they can completely stow inside.
For the FireLite 475ml Ti Trapper's Mug, this would mean a component height of 3 1/2 inches or less. Since this cone would likely be around 6 1/2 to 7 inches high, it would need to be at least two pieces. How could the two or more pieces be joined?
Second, if a user was to restrict themselves to only using Esbit (not alcohol), could the cone be shortened by the 5/8 inch that the GramCracker (TM) sits off the ground (with a modified GramCracker of course). In theory, this would allow you to set the Esbit pellet directly on ground level (on something fireproof of course).Jun 17, 2008 at 3:22 am #1438701
I think if the taper on the cone is steep enough and the cone is divided in half horizontally, then 2 parts of the cone will support each other with a 1/4 inch or so overlap. The top ring may need to be enlarged slightly to slip over the bottom ring, the taper would ensure it didn't slip too far. You wouldn't need a gap for a handle, so the dovetail join would go all the way to the top. This would allow the top ring to support the mug. Sort of hard to explain! It's sort of like stacking disposable cups!!
I would buy one!Jun 17, 2008 at 6:48 am #1438704
Jason, The method often discussed for these cones is like those 'folding' plastic cups from the 70's where two concentric cones collapse on each other, or expand tightly. This would allow the cone to completely rest, protected, in any size pot.Jun 17, 2008 at 7:27 am #1438712
@dangLocale: Pacific Northwet
A much simpler solution to a 2 piece cone would be to have the cone attach midway or so up the cup. You would need to attach a couple of wraps of some fiberglass wick/string (take a look at minibulldesigns.com) midway or so up the side of the pot.
This is not my idea, but I've seen a picture of this setup on the beercan caldera used by Alan Dixon in the backpackinglight print magazine.Jun 17, 2008 at 9:44 pm #1438849
I have suggested something like that before ( I wasn't aware of the Alan Dixon version) but with most pots it still would not fit inside if you want to use alcohol . For example the cone of the 550ml pot is about 6.5" high, the pot is only 3". With Esbit and a cone resting only 1/2" above the bottom , then it can be done . The same goes for a two piece version unless a band is used to connect the two ( make that a three piece version….)
Now if you combine the two piece version and a mid pot collar, then it can work, but is it worth the extra weight/complexity or fragility ?
FrancoJun 17, 2008 at 10:12 pm #1438853
Given the height required for the cone to work (pot height + stove + 1.5" for flame) one would need to have a two piece cone with a horizontal seam. IMHO that gets just a bit too fussy for ease of use. That configuration exceeds my KISS coefficient.Jun 17, 2008 at 10:47 pm #1438857
A mid/low pot collar would definitely allow for the use of a shorter cone, but only a collar within 1/2 inch of the bottom of the pot would allow for a one piece cone that fully nests inside the pot. One of the redeeming features of the cone design is that it contains the heat along the entire side of the pot, thus providing better heat transfer and thus thermal efficiency. So you would lose some efficiency with the low pot collar and short cone combination, but you gain in other areas like useability. For example, you would likely be able to grasp the lip of the pot with your bare hands since it would not have heat directed onto it by the cone.
I think the stacking cones with horizontal circumference seam idea has merit in attempting to conceptualize a full height cone. If they were to designed to have 1/2 to 3/4 inch of overlap, they should be fairly stable. I agree it's a little more fussy, but I may be willing to accept the tradeoff for a more compact package.Jun 18, 2008 at 8:27 am #1438896
@jkrew81Locale: White Mtns
I to am interested in a Caldera for the Trapper Mug. While I am def not clever enough to build my own I sent over to Rand to see if there was a plan for it. Here is the reposnse.
"Thanks for the note! Well…..I wouldn't say there is anything quite as firm as a "plan" to do Calderas for this. We need to get a sample of the mug against which we can design the cone for fit. My partner has a call into Ryan Jordan to see if he can send one our way…….and that is about the extent of the "planning" at this stage. So, from a "market research" point of view….do you have one of these? and if so, would you buy a Caldera for it if we had one on the shelf?"Jun 18, 2008 at 2:54 pm #1438951
Have been in contact with Ryan Jordan today….he's sending us a mug so we can size caldera cones
to it. I figure we should have product (depending on when we get the mug) ready to ship in a few
Thanks again for the interest…..
Rand :)Jun 22, 2008 at 12:09 am #1439488
Just wanted to let everybody know that Ryan sent a Trapper Mug along….we just got it….and should have cones designed this next next week….production run planned for the week of July 4th….and I suspect it will be up on our website the week of July 7th.
Thanks for all the interest! ….and as you see a need for cones for pots we don't cover…please drop me a line. While we can't cover every nook and cranny….we do like to cover the more popular lines and especially the BPL pots.
Rand :-)Jun 24, 2008 at 12:33 am #1439778
Received the mug and developed the first template cone for the Trapper Mug. It's cute! Turns out the mug also fits inside the new Caddy. Will probably do production runs over the 4th. Here are some shots.
Jun 24, 2008 at 1:26 am #1439782
Nice one Rand! I didn't try a caldera for ages because of the packing issues, but I have been using a caldera with a Firelite 550 lately and am really impressed, near boiling enough water for 2 coffees, soup and dinner on 30mL of fuel. I have retired all of my homemade stoves, floppy foil windscreens and dodgy pot stands. Red Bull never tasted any good to me anyway.Jun 24, 2008 at 4:35 am #1439800
@jkrew81Locale: White Mtns
thats awesome rand, I was wondering if the mug would fit in the caddy. Sign me up :)Jun 24, 2008 at 7:11 am #1439809
I found that my Brasslite 600 can replace the top of a Caddy. It pushes over the bottom's threads with a snug fit, to contain a Cone, stove, and other kitchen parts. Weight of the bottom is 1.73 oz. Then I made a short Reflectix cozy at .42 oz for the bottom, resulting in a very compact Cone, cup, and "cozied bowl" package.
The Caddy makes the Cone an outstanding system.Jun 24, 2008 at 8:56 am #1439823
I never figured the pot and all would fit inside a Caddy! That kinda changes the whole equation for me.
If I can stow the whole works in the cylindrical semi-rigid Caddy container (as opposed to conical flexible red drinking cup), and the Caddy doubles as a mug and bowl, and protects my ultralight mug, and keeps everything in one place, etc, etc… then perhaps I am willing to temporarily hold off on my search for a two-part cone.
I will still be waiting and hoping for it all to fit in the mug itself, but this is an exciting development none the less. Thanks Rand!
By the way, I recently discovered that Rand and associates are mechanical engineers, so a lot of the 'help' that I was trying to give them was not warranted. I cleaned up a couple of my earlier posts with this in mind. I am certain that they have the engineering of these things well in hand. I can't wait to see what they come up with in the future.Jun 24, 2008 at 8:11 pm #1439941
@back2basicsLocale: Southeast USA
Thanks for the input. I also have the BL600 w/Ti-Tri. Did you find a mesh bag to hold it all together? If so, what did it come from?Jun 24, 2008 at 8:22 pm #1439946
I don't use a mesh bag to hold things together. The 600 fits snug enough over the caddy that everything stays in place. If it ever loosens up, I'll just add a wrap or two of tape to the Caddy.
The only issue is that the Ti-Tri is about 1/8 taller than the Caddy. Time will tell if it is prone to getting bent… but I doubt it.
It is a tight and solid setup.Jun 25, 2008 at 2:52 pm #1440122
I am ordering one when the hit the shelves.
When it comes to a two part assembly I am still interested because it cuts the 2 plus ounces of the case out.
What about something like the seams in dryer duct? Its like a press together seam that would work pretty well I think. Only problem would be the longevity or how the lightweight material would hold up to being pressed in and out over and over again.
Maybe just a lip on the bottom cone could have a rolled out like "d" shaped lip that would be a fairly windproof acceptable seam to allow you to just slip the top cone in. A little snug but no where near as strenuous as trying to fit the dryer type seam together. the top part of the "d" loop would not touch all the way to allow the top cone to mate in. I will try to draw something crude with paint to illustrate.Jun 25, 2008 at 3:01 pm #1440125
It is very crude, sorry. But you can see im just trying to creat a kind of tray with the red part for the top cone to sit in. A little springy tension on it would help hold and create an almost windproof seal I would think.Jun 25, 2008 at 3:05 pm #1440126
If I understand the two part cone under discussion: It occurs to me that due to the difference in diameter of any horizontal "folds", and the need to roll, and/or unroll the cone, there may be a deformation of the metal.
My limited experience in bending TI is that it looses it's flexibility rapidly and cracks apart.Jun 25, 2008 at 3:14 pm #1440128
Your limited experience is more then mine( I have non). I just want to keep the ball rolling and see if something can come of a good idea. I do see what you mean though with deforming. All good food for thought.
Any HVAC guys out there? could use a lesson in bending light gage metalJun 25, 2008 at 3:16 pm #1440130
Light weight but quite brittle. I've got a half dozen or so ti stakes that I've snapped while trying to close the loop on the "Sheppard's crook". I was too lazy to get out the propane torch and anneal them as I worked.Jun 25, 2008 at 3:30 pm #1440134
I dont know if Jason intended it to be TI? That might solve some issues with folding and bending?
I have not heard anything negative with regard to the longevity of the original cone system…I would be interested in reading some if it existed.Jun 25, 2008 at 3:51 pm #1440140
I mentioned titanium, but I am not absolutely fixed on this. The aluminum Caldera that I have for my Snowpeak 700 seems to be very durable. Some weights of titanium are a little more resistant to bending, but this shouldn't be a big concern with a CC unless you are particularily careless with it!Jun 25, 2008 at 4:01 pm #1440141
Jeff shows a lip to hold the top, but what about 3 simple tabs, pointing up to capture the top half? They wouldn't be supporting much weight, and it would be in shear.
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