Cooking Systems

[John Meeks]

I hit the trail at Philmont on 8-1 and am concerned about my morning cup of coffee. Here is what I know I can do.
1. Pack enough Java Juice for the 10 or 11 days. I figure two packets per day.

2. Grind my own beans ahead of time and use the french press feature on my Jetboil. The cleanup is not appealing though.

3. Take Folgers coffee bags or instant. I see this as a last resort just because of the quality.

Your suggestions are truly apprecited.
Thanks

[Phil Barton]

John, you're right in listing many ways to make coffee on the trail. There's an excellent article in BPL Magazine, issue #6 by Mike Clelland on trail coffee.

Your french press will make the best coffee. But you're right in it being a hassle to clean. With the Jetboil it's also heavy.

I use what Mike recommends — carry coffee grounds and make cowboy coffee. After removing a 900 ml pot of boiling water from the fire, I add 2 heaping Tsp of coffee. I let sit it for 3-5 min then pour each cup through a MSR coffee filter basket. It's not a huge mess to clean. The coffee is good.

The added weight is less than 1 oz for the filter and about 12 oz. for the coffee to be shared over 10 days. I will usually bring a pot cozy anyway.

Java Juice is lighter but not as good. Instant ain't coffee.

[victoria maki]

john, i find if you let the Folgers coffee bags sit long enough in the boiling h2o, it's not bad..i use the back of my spoon to get the last of the coffee in the cup before letting the bags dry.. if you need to get going in the a.m. hang the bags on the outside of your pack until totally dry. the weight is marginal and you are not having to throw grounds where bears might be. as far as the freezer bag cooking, it does work. i purchased the book to make my own meals. quite tasty….and a lot cheaper, too.

[John Myers]

John,
They had a supply of some kind of instant at the advisors meeting the first night we were in base camp that some of the guys took advantage of and all the staffed camps have advisors coffee in the evenings (although that doesn't help in the mornings). I've also heard of people taking chocolate covered expresso beans. I think you can get them at the Tooth of Time trading post in base camp.

I was concerned about the same thing. My main concern was the time it took in the mornings to prepare it (fire up the stove, get the coffee out of the bear bags and cleanup). We tried to hit the trail early so timing was an issue.

After considering the alternatives, I just quit drinking coffee for a month before we departed. I was surprised that I didn't miss it at all while I was there. One of our other advisors didn't drink it while he was there and he didn't seem to miss it either. YMMV

I'm sure enjoying a nice hot cup right now though!

John

p.s. are you the John Meeks in Dallas?

[Mike Barney]

Phil, we're headed out this afternoon. Will see you on the top of Mt. Phillips.

Mike

[Barth Tillotson]

I took Java Juice last year, and had "cowboy coffee" in some of the staffed camps during "advisors coffee".

I ended up finding that the Java Juice was often better than the very-uneven results made by the staff, especially the younger ones.

[John Meeks]

Thanks to everyone that weighed in on this critical subject. Today my wife administered a blind taste test between Nescafe Taster's Choice Gourmet Roast (instant), Java Juice (concentrate), and Maxwell House Coffee Bags (like tea bags). As you can see, I spend WAY to much time thinking about coffee, but with all other gear ready and acquired this is a good way to spend the restless time waiting to get out to Philmont.

It is hard to admit, but the Nescafe won out on flavor and aroma. Also, there would be no trash, no clean-up with instant, and it's the lightest weight option. To truly put this to the test I will take this on our last shake-down this weekend. Thanks again for the feedback!

[Laurie Ann March]

Sorry to peek into this thread a little late. I was on Yahoo checking out sites linking to http://www.aforkinthetrail.com and this thread came up.

I don't do FBC but there also isn't a ton of cleanup with my style of cooking. Anyway if you have any questions I am at your disposal. :)

[paul buzzard]

We just got back and had coffee everyday except maybe 3 days. I made a cheesecloth bag that had a drawstring closure on the top, (the cheesecloth was triple layer) and then put a coffee filter into the bag. Added freshly ground,(right before leaving anyways) coffee, (whoo my pack smelled intitally!) and put in water right away. Boiled water for about a minute then let sit. Man, what a trail treat in the morning.

[George Geist]

Our crew just got back from Philmont this month
were we used a new lightweight food preparation
method we had come up with and practiced with
actual Philmont meals before leaving for the Ranch.

This super efficient meal preparation technique not only
minimizes clean up and gray water produced (none), it also
minimizes the amount of trash produced, the amount of fuel
used (we used two 8oz canisters per week with some left
over), and the amount of water needed (important in dry
camps of which we had a couple).

The Philmont foil packages are used to cook and eat out of.
The amount of trash generated is only the meal packages
that Philmont gives the crew.

Details can be found at
http://www.csm.ornl.gov/~geist/Philmont/

[Wesley Witt]

I leave for Philmont on Monday. We are bringing Starbucks Via instant coffee packets. I've been using them on my treks this year and think that it is the best solution that I've used in my many decades of backpacking. I have 24 packets in my backpack so that I can have 2 cups of hot coffee every morning!

We are also using the "turkey bag" cooking method to save the cleanup work. My wife made some large cozies that we'll use with the turkey bags.

My crew is all trained in the UL ways and every member is packing light. I think the heaviest pack in the crew is about 22 pounds. We're going on trek #27. We are bringing our own light weight crew gear and will take on no extra gear from Philmont other than bear bags.

In my conversations with many other Scout leaders that have either gone to Philmont or are going this year I received a lot of push back on using ultra light techniques. I had several adults proudly tell me how they went to Philmont with a 55 pound pack. These guys are completely insane. On the flip side I have also evangelized several people into using UL packing and they reported back as having a great experience. It is interesting how so many people have a very negative view of lightweight packing.

[Phil Barton]

Wes, have a great time! I took Via this summer (3 a day). It is a good way to go. Hope all your crew does well with the lightweight kit. Let us know how it goes.
All the best,
Phil

[Mike Barney]

Wes noted: "I had several adults proudly tell me how they went to Philmont with a 55 pound pack. These guys are completely insane." You nailed it! After about day 4 when the real miles and vertical came into play, it seemed like the heavyweights got interested in lightweight gear.

The heaviest pack of our group this year was 32 lbs, most were 24-28 leaving base camp w/ food, crew gear and water. We were told by our sister crew we were wimps, amongst several other choice adjectives BPL would surely censor. Ironically about day 4, they wanted to swap packs. Theirs were 55-70 lbs. Our technogeeks clocked them at about 1.7 mph average for the trip. We averaged 2.9 for the entire trip, including up and down Baldy.

After the 3rd day, they started giving up activities to try to beat us to the next camp. The last day they left at 3:45 AM from Ponderosa Park. We still beat them into base camp, by hiking much faster clearly due to lightweight gear, reasonable planning, having a navigator that could really navigate, not taking rediculously long breaks and not getting lost.

I guess "real men" as they put it, waste a lot of time on the trail and can't hike very fast.

Proud to be a Lightweight Wimp!
MikeB

[Scott Bentz]

I think the thought is that a heavier pack means you are more macho than the next guy. A heavy pack doesn't feel all that heavy in your living room. After all, you do have a chair, 3 changes of clothes, pots, pans, lanterns, bivouac equip., storm rated tents, 1.5 lb. footprints, C Cell Maglites, towels, leather (not ankle turner) boots, 4 pairs of heavy wool socks, and many more items that make you will feel just like you are at home.

I was amazed at the old school approach at Philmont. However, if you do read the Philmont handbook it stresses lightening one's pack weight. They suggest a total of 35 lbs. The only problem is, people think that means 35 lbs. BEFORE you get there and add troop gear, food and water. That's why in the UL crowd BASE weight is stressed so religiously. Keep the base weight low and the overall weight will not be too hard; even at Philmont. I told the boys and the leaders to pack like they were just going on a 4 day hike. One of our leaders was 63 years old. He could not thank me enough for having spent the time with everyone to teach them the techniques we have all learned here on this website. He had given up on backpacking. It was a big payoff.

On our final day we kept picking off crew after crew. Our loads were at their lightest and we were just cruising. Other crews would just pull to the side of a set of switchbacks when they saw us coming with what must have seemed to them a bunch of scouts wearing day packs. It was fun. One troop tried to overtake us from behind on the way down from Tooth of Time but finally gave up. Lightweight at Philmont is the only way to go! Wimps rule!!!

[Joe Clement]

There are much better ways to prove your machismo than a heavy backpack. Like chasing cheerleaders. Ha!

[Kathleen B]

Al – what are these Philmont foil packages you talk about here and on your link that you eat out of? Are they obtainable empty to put your own food in, or are they the ones the Philmont "people in charge" issue your food in and are prepackaged somewhere?

[Jim Colten]

Nice set of articles Al! I have 11 months for getting our crews to buy into dome of that stuff.

I like the idea of buying PhilFood in advance to practice with (and to help with the sales pitch). Note that folks probably want to shop early (soon after their season ends) because they are selling surplus from the most recent season and when it's gone it's gone until next year.

Did you make that chair yourself or is it something you bought?

[George Geist]

Hi Kathleen,

Philmont issues food to the crews for their trek. Usually four days worth at a time. The supper ingredients are packaged by Philmont in foil packages that serve 2.
Here is an example – 2008 S2 (supper #2) package contains:
– 7"x8" foil pouch of black beans and rice for 2
– 7"x6" foil pouch of pilot biscuits for 2
– 5"x4" foil pouch of corn for 2
– 5"x4" foil pouch of pineapple chunks for 1
– 5"x4" foil pouch of pineapple chunks for 1
All these are stuffed into a 12"x14" clear plastic bag
The total weight of S2 is 15oz.

Usually all this packaging is just trash
and the food is poured into pots or turkey bags.

This summer our crew figured out a method to use
the foil pouches as both the cooking bag and bowl.

This eliminated clean up, sterilizing bowls, and
reduced the amount of fuel used. Saved weight all around.

We incorporated a lot of good ideas I found in this forum
such as using two stoves with two smaller pots to boil
the water faster.

[George Geist]

> Did you make that chair yourself or is it something you bought?

Hi Jim,

I bought the Sling-Light chair on the recommendations of
folks on this forum who said it was really useful to them
at Philmont. Having just gotten back from our Trek, I have
to agree it was really useful at Philmont.

You can get the chair from Sling-Light
http://www.slinglight.com/
or Crazy Creek
http://crazycreek.com/product/specials/66/

[George Geist]

In the image below may be useful to crews heading to
Philmont for the first time. First, it shows how much volume,
and how many bags, 4 days of food for a crew of 8 is.
Lesson 1. Be sure your boys have plenty of space left in
their packs to handle this volume.
Second, the photo shows volume of the standard issue
Philmont pots, pans, frisbee, et al. We left all these in
the locker. We took our own lightweight cooking kit seen
in the ziplock bag sitting on the table right in front
of the pots. Notice how much less space it takes up.
The kit weighed 24oz and contained everything including the
stoves, pots, spoons, bowls, cozies, soap, hand cleaner,
sump screen – everything but the fuel canisters.
A detailed contents list of the lightweight cook kit
can be found at http://www.csm.ornl.gov/~geist/Philmont/

[Michael Ray]

For those that use the turkey bag style, do you spoon, pour or squeeze out (like an icing bag) the portions for each crew member from the bag after re-hydration?

Al,
I really like your technique that eliminates the need for a turkey bag. I don't quite follow your cozy design though. From your cozy picture and the need for a stiffener and clips, it sounds as if you're clipping the bags on the OUTside of the cozy so the cozy is simply to hold the bag upright rather than retain heat. If the bags go inside, why would you need clips? Why not use something simpler like a padded Tyvek mailing envelope?

[George Geist]

>If the bags go inside, why would you need clips?
>Why not use something simpler like a padded Tyvek mailing envelope?

Excellent question Michael. Here are three photos of the cozy that hopefully will help you see how it is made. If folks can come up with even better, easier, cheaper cozies, that would be wonderful. I started out with a simple envelope design, but after watching the boys try out a couple Philmont practice meals, the design evolved.

The key cozy design parameters are:

1. Dimensions of the Philmont supplied foil food pouches. An example is shown in the first figure. I bought 6 different meals, containing 23 foil pouches which varied from 7"x10" to 4"x6". One edge was always between 6-7" so I made the cozy 7" wide. I made the cozy short enough so the pouch would stick out the top to make pouring in the boiling water easier. I made the sides 3". I added clips as an accessory when I saw the boys let the top edge of a 4"x6" pouch of corn slip down into the cozy while practicing pouring in boiling water. Now clips hold the short pouches so their top doesn't slip down inside the cozy where their contents may spill.

2. Volume of the cozy needs to be large enough to hold the maximum volume of water in a single serving of any Philmont meal. That turns out to be 12oz (1.5 cups) plus the volume
of the freeze dried food already in the bag. To address this I made the cozy 3" wide at the bottom, giving it the volume of a triangular prism 7" long.

3. Very desirable to have the cozy stand up by itself. The food needs to rehydrate for 10-15 minutes after stirring. I saw the boys trying to sit the cozies down during this time. Envelopes don't work very well for this feature. The triangular shape allows the cozy to hold the pouch upright and being widest at the bottom the water weight and hence the center of gravity is low on this design making the cozy harder to knock over while rehydrating.

4. While not a required feature, I wanted the cozy to be as light as possible so I used 7"x9" piece of 2mm art foam and folded it as shown in the photo so that it would pack flat. The cozy weighed 5 grams. It worked great holding the pouch. It was plenty big to hold the volume of water. But I found that when BOILING water was poured in, and allowed to sit for a few minutes, the foam properties changed. It no longer held its triangular shape. Increasing the chance that the cozy would fall over and spill the food while rehydrating. My quick fix, one week before we left for Philmont, was to slip in a thin sheet of plastic on the two sides of the cozy. This worked very well at holding the cozy shape when hot. It also pretty much eliminated the need for the clips, but we carried and used the clips at Philmont to just be EXTRA safe not to spill any food using this new cooking method.

[Michael Ray]

Thanks for the detailed description. So the clips are really serving no purpose in the middle pic – they're just not getting lost. ;) They'd be clipped along one side of the top edge to hold up shorter pouches.

I think your design makes sense for use with Philmont pouches that can't be resealed after adding the water where the chance of spilling is pretty high. I've only used ziplocs to date so that isn't an issue for me.

Do you still use these for non-Philmont trips?

[George Geist]

When considering what cooking system to use on our Philmont trek, we first considered turkey bagging. The pro is the large pots do not have to be cleaned. The cons where we had to carry two large pots and we still had to sterilize bowls before meals and clean them after meals. There was also the issue of serving the food out of the turkey bag. The serving pros/cons have already been discussed in forums.

Going beyond turkey bagging, we next considered not carrying the large pots or turkey bags. Just pour the dry food directly into microwave-safe bowls, pour in boiling water, stir, and let sit for 10 minutes with caps on the bowls.
Pros are we don't have to carry large pots, don't have to clean the pots, and there is more flexibility in what is eaten, i.e. some people don't like mashed potatoes mixed with spaghetti. Cons are we still had to sterilize bowls before meals and wash them after meals. If you use this method, I would suggest 16oz bowls. We tried it with 12oz bowls and the rehydrated food came right to the cap.

Going beyond cooking in the bowls, we considered using the Philmont food pouches as both the cooking bags and the bowls. Pros are there is nothing to clean–the pouches are thrown away just as in the other methods. The difference is that the pouches are used first. There is no need to sterilize bowls-you get a new pouch for each meal. This has the potential to be the lightest approach.

We used the Philmont food pouch method during our trek, but we also carried a stack of microwavable bowls to use for the chuck wagon dinner. As an experiment, for two meals we dropped back and tried the cooking in bowls method. After two days of cleaning bowls the boys had had enough of the sump and gray water and went back to the Philmont food pouch method.

It is important to practice with the pouch method before showing up at Philmont. And also be prepared to improvise to get the needed number of pouches for supper that night.
In 2008 meals, Philmont put pouches of dried pineapple chunks for supper desert. In several 2009 meals that desert has been replaced with oreo cookies. So you may have to save the granola foil pouches from breakfast to use for supper.

[Michael Ray]

What do you do on normal trips where you don't have any Philmont pouches? Just use the Tupperware method?

[Author]

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