CANISTERS VS WHITE GAS

[Scott Bentz]

Our Troop 395 from La Canada CA is going to Philmont July/Aug this year. Trek 23. I was almost certain we were going to use white gas stoves since it is plentiful and we would not have to carry out our canisters. However, since we will only cook once a day and use ziploc bags to cook in I am seriously reconsidering this.

We have been using canisters for the past few years and have found we need very little gas to get the job done. The stove itself is much lighter than the white gas stove and much easier to set up and get going. Altitude should not be a problem since our highest camp is about 10,1000 ft.

So what do you think? I think the convenience of the canister plus the weight savings of the stove outweigh the fact that we have to pack them even when empty. An empty white gas tank is not free of weight either.

About how many canisters do you think would do the trick? Of course we'll experiment on our shakedowns, but would like some opinions.

BTW, this is a fantastic resource!

[Joe Westing]

I would certainly bring canister stoves on your Philmont trip. When I went to Philmont, my crew brought white gas but they were a pain to start and they were not reliable. A canister stove system would be much lighter- for more details, see the gigantic Backpacking Light @ Philmont thread. Overall, I can't think of any good reason to take the white gas or other liquid fuel stove.

[Mike Barney]

Scott,
there is a thread here that addresses this.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/13413/index.html?skip_to_post=99765#99765

Canisters seem like a slam dunk to me, and I believe are a little safer.

[Roger Caffin]

You will find my opinions in the many articles here at BPL on stoves. Suffice to say that white gas is a dodo in my books.

Fwiiw, I budget 30 grams of gas per day for two of us. Ymmv.

Cheers

[Mike Barney]

30 gm per day for 2:
How much water are you typically planning on boiling a day / how many meals?

Regards,
MikeB

[Curt Ward]

With the Scouts, choose a stove that is durable. Then have the Scouts use them on your shakedowns. We took our Coleman Peak 1s on the last two treks and they performed perfectly. However, it is my understanding that the canisters are going to be available in the back country this year for the first time. This may cause us to change our minds for the next trek.

[Mike Barney]

Scott,
last year with 10, we went through 2.4 lbs of canister gas. We used turkeybagging, which made the cleanup much easier, and I believe helped us use less hot water.

With 12, we're taking three 1 lb canisters.

MikeB

[Scott Bentz]

Hey everybody, thanks for the good info. I think for our troop, we will be taking canisters now. We have a lot of experience with them and can share the load. I was mainly concerned with the weight of carrying spent canisters as they are not the lightest even when empty.

As I said, we will be cooking in bags and will have less clean up. We have been doing this with our troop for awhile now. Also, the boys we are taking, except one, have all been on various trips using these methods. We put our troop together with the qualification of eagle scouts only. It's an older experienced crew.

Thanks again.

[Joe Westing]

another interesting link from thru-hiker.com showing stove and fuel weights over 14 days (http://thru-hiker.com/articles/stoveweight_vs_time_14days.php) and 28 days (http://thru-hiker.com/articles/stoveweight_vs_time_28days.php).

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mike

> 30 gm per day for 2:
> How much water are you typically planning on boiling a day / how many meals?

I am sure I have listed this several times on the Forum before, but no matter. Summer use:
Breakfast: cold (except in the snow)
Morning tea: 300 mL cup of tea and coffee for my wife and me
Lunch: cold
Afternoon tea: snacks
Dinner: 300 mL instant soup (boiling); ~750 mL stew for two (boiling); washing up (150 mL hot)

Roughly speaking, morning tea by itself uses about 8 g of gas. I have had the daily use down to <25 g for the 2 of us, but I was running short on gas that trip …

Cheers

[chris whitmoyer]

Last year my crew went on Trek 21, up to the Valle Vidal. The only fuel available at the commissary at Ring Place was white gas. We were using Coleman Powermax canisters. We ran out before we got to Baldy Town on day 8. Luckily we were allowed to have camp fires or we would have been eating cold crunchy dinners. I would email Philmont and find out what fuel will be available at your commissaries.

[Mike Barney]

Philmont has noted in a couple of publications that as of this year (see p. 17 of the 2008 Guidebook to Adventure) that Isopropane will be available at the trading posts. Hopefully that also means it will be in stock. Be Prepared.

MikeB

[Douglas Prosser]

How about taking a Bushbuddy stove as a back-up in case the canisters are not available?

[Mike Barney]

With it being the first year of the Trading Posts' having Isoprop, we're taking a CYA approach: We're taking 3 – 1 lbs canisters of gas, which should cover the entire trek for 12. (Not a big deal weight wise as our total crew gear weight is ~ 24 oz per person.) If weight were more critical, I would inquire about availability of iso gas at base camp, then estimate the risk amount from there.

We found in '06 that the different places to drop off trash would accept the empty canisters if they were punctured and flattened…. It's actually a very satisfying experience after a long day :)

[Scott Bentz]

I was thinking of using the medium size canister for our crew. I think they are 8 oz. net gas. That way we can spread them out through the troop. The 16 oz. canisters are a bit bulky for me.

The Bush Buddy is a great idea as a backup. I also will probably take along my titanium Esbit stove along with a few tablets. My son also has the same one.

The whole reason I was shying away from canister is due to the fact that we could not dispose of them when empty. I think I am over that because of the ease of use of a canister and that's what were used to.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mike

> We're taking 3 – 1 lbs canisters of gas
??? 1 lb – 540 grams. That is not a size of screw-thread canister known to me. Are you taking the significantly heavier Coleman-style propane canisters?

If so, what stoves are you using? The propane canisters are not, afaik, compatible with the screw-thrtead upright stoves.

Or do you mean the 450 g screw-thread canisters but are including the weight of the empty?

[Mike Barney]

Hi Roger, these are the screw thread canisters. 1 lb / 450 g +/-, ~ same thing. They are 23 oz full, 6. oz empty. The 8 oz / 220 g canisters weight 13 oz full, 5 oz empty.

https://www.expeditionexchange.com/primus/indexmain.shtml

2nd picture from top.

Hope that helps,
Mike

[Roger Caffin]

Mumble … imperial measurements … mumble….
Calculator finger problems …. mumble …

Those 450 g canisters are good value, both in $ and weight.

[Paul Mergens]

All,

Our crew used turkey bags last year to "cook" our meals. The easy clean up was well worth the weight of the bags. On boiling water, if your crew brings their own 4 or 6 quart aluminum pots with heavy duty tin foil lids (which I would recommend over the Philmont pots/lids), I would mask off the sides of the pots and spray the bottom of the pots with some black high temp stove paint. The "Black" bottom pots will boil water much faster, conserving fuel and speeding up the food prep process. Also, all stoves should be used with some sort of foil wind screen, even if it is not windy.

Paul

[Mark Verber]

Mike… did you measure the canister to be 6oz empty of was that someone's estimate? In the
primus @orwm the canister was reported to be 7.7oz.

–Mark

[Mike Barney]

I guess I dropped the .9, should have read 6.9 oz empty…. Was actually weighed.
MikeB

[Bruce Tolley]

I led a crew last summer and we used white gas stoves.

The Philmont trading post was selling Coleman Powermax cartridges. Some of the commissaries were also selling the Powermax cartridges.

Many of the staffed camps are very particular about what kinds of "trash" was acceptable. I inquired at several camps and the staff seemed to have not heard of any policy about accepting or not accepting Powermax, or any other cartridge for that matter.

[Mike Barney]

I actually weighed one on my digital (non certified) scale. The difference could be the delta in manufacturers (of the cylinders or the scale :)

[John Myers]

Doug,
I loved the idea of the bushbuddy for a stove. We just returned from our trek last night and the fire danger is rated extreme so they would not have allowed it while we were there. I recommend calling ahead if you are planning to do this to see if the ban has been lifted.

John

[Walter Underwood]

We chose Coleman Exponent Xpert stoves (PowerMax cartridges) for our troop. I wrote up the criteria and some experience here:

http://wunderwood.org/most_casual_observer/2007/02/stoves_for_boy_scouts.html

They are very efficient with fuel. We only used half the fuel we brought on our big snow camping trip.

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